Balance....

[Troy Williams]

With all this being said, why would it be bad to blend and balence water and land (correctly) from the beginning rather than in steps. I realize its easier to teach and correct on land, you get that stuff behind you so that the transition into water is smoother and does not risk water sessions going "sour" and developing a bad water attitude.

But why not break the water force, water T, swimby into componets at the same time your doing your land work. Once you get to the point of swim by, your already about done, you are just polishing it, the dog is comfortable and has developed good water habits & attitude.

It makes so much more sense to build a dog with good behavior from the beginning, that turns into good habits. A habit becomes a habit and if the dog is bad, it's probably a lack of effort which a correction for is black & white. The other reason would be lack of experience. If you do your job as a trainer, you will see when the dog is over his head. Lack of effort is easy to see and distinguish from lack of experience.

Balance can come in many ways and over a large period of time. Sometimes the opposite of "balance" is what is needed. How it all relates to the individual dog, that particular dogs idiosynchrasies, etc.

Take a complex tune-up. A complex water tune-up is by no means a balancing thing all by itself but it means to restore balance. Actually a complex water tune-up is very much the opposite of training balance. Take a cheaty dog and run some and you probably haven't improved that dogs willingness to handle shorelines very much, maybe even caused a propensity to cheat. But take a watery one and then you are hopefully making that dog way more comfortable around them.

Trainers, probably like your Scott, have a sense about what a dog needs and when he needs it. Or when to worry about something or when to not give it much of a thought. Some "things" within dogs, things like their persona, the way the mind works (wild&fast or calm&analytical) or any range in between decides how I may deal with a dog on a day-to-day basis.

I know you know this but....when training dogs......They learn to do the "shouldn't's" way easier than they learn to do the "should's".

I have a question.....When we are training dogs are we training them to go thru the motions or are we training them to think thru problems. In my opinion, if they don't have any problems how are they gonna learn to deal with problems?

Was told about a dog once, FC/AFC Rita Reynolds,.....It was said that she could mark so well that when she didn't step on a bird she would have a hard time finding it and get frustrated and then couldn't hunt very well. EVERYTHING is subjective!

Troy

[cdwyer]

I know you know this but....when training dogs......They learn to do the "shouldn't's" way easier than they learn to do the "should's".

I have a question.....When we are training dogs are we training them to go thru the motions or are we training them to think thru problems. In my opinion, if they don't have any problems how are they gonna learn to deal with problems?

Thats what Im getting at, if you start the balence between land and water early the basic "shoulds" become habits and the "shouldn'ts" get worked out with experience as the dog advances?

I am talking just the period between force to pile through swim-by and early decheat stuff.

[Troy Williams]

I will say something and hope I say it right.....

I too do the TT work and splash them at Swim-by. Swim-by is behind me over my shoulder. I do not incorporate the whole she-bang as I read from your description. I DO NOT know that there would ever be anything wrong with what you are doing. I just think maybe it's possible that the dog doesn't get the entire benefit of the training process. I could be very wrong in my thinking, it's just my opinion.

When you bring this topic up as you have before I wonder about the "process" itself. The process of showing the dog or putting the dog thru the paces of the drill by doing each leg in a seperate yet connected kind of way. One question. I do not have the answer. But here it is: Does that dog learn to solve the problem of the drill or does that dog simply retrace it's steps?

I would think it would have to be practiced on a sampling of dogs to see if the end results were soild.

I also hope you are right. It sounds way easier.

Troy

[Troy Williams]

I know you know this but....when training dogs......They learn to do the "shouldn't's" way easier than they learn to do the "should's".

Thats what Im getting at, if you start the balence between land and water early the basic "shoulds" become habits and the "shouldn'ts" get worked out with experience as the dog advances?

I am talking just the period between force to pile through swim-by and early decheat stuff.

When i say that I mean to say I am way in favor of over-doing, over-training to overcome the "shouldn't's".

I think if you try to fine line, literally, razor line the balance thing the dog will always be teetering and on the brink of it's own natural tendecies and more prone to fail over time or under pressure.

Troy

[cdwyer]

One question. I do not have the answer. But here it is: Does that dog learn to solve the problem of the drill or does that dog simply retrace it's steps

Thats the bottom line... When I was in high school and was on the wrestling team, I worked my butt off doing all the drills, going through the motions, was as good as anybody on the drill work, knew all the moves but when it came to a match, within seconds I was wrapped up 14 differents ways being drawn to a distant white light.

That experience is always in the back of my mind and I try my best to make sure that everything I do is connected to what happens in the real world out in the field to the best to my abilities. Not every dog responds well to getting off the established training path and fortunatly for me, I can experiment with some goofy stuff and keep what works and discard what doesnt and at the same time gain the experience of reading dogs and how they handle unconventonal process and quickly move back onto the path if need be.

These kinds of discussions are cool, thanks for adding!

[goosebruce]

also, pulling the balance rug out from under an advanced dog is often a good thing to do.... dogs can't stay on top forever, so often after test season, I purposely get my dogs off balance in our routines.... that way we have something to train on. as it comes time to 'put them back together' we restore the balance to our routines, and therefore their overall mindset.

Charles I think your point about particular dogs got lost in a good discussion about balance. Sometimes, some dogs need something that most want... looking at the dog in front of you and where it needs to go today is what its all about. And playing the balance (or off balance) game is sometimes what the special needs dog needs. Spooky puppy was saved by the water.... her love of tj and water is the only thing that got her thru. She ran cold water blinds before we ever ran the first pattern blind on land.... it was a crutch she needed and it worked FOR HER. I might never do that again with another dog in my life, but it was what she needed and it clearly worked, so heck, it had to be right! travis

[gator]

Best post that's been on here in awhile!!!

damn right..........this right here is what this place is about.

gator

[RF]

When i say that I mean to say I am way in favor of over-doing, over-training to overcome the "shouldn't's".

I think if you try to fine line, literally, razor line the balance thing the dog will always be teetering and on the brink of it's own natural tendecies and more prone to fail over time or under pressure.

Troy

Agree 100%. They are just dogs and many times they learn to do things correctly by first learning that what they are trying to do is not correct. Remember that we are requesting behaviors that are counter to many of their natural tendancies. It has to be black and white or the dog will fail consistently; or quit.

[Mike Perry]

Black and white is how a dogs thinking was explained to me several years ago. The gray areas can really get them confused.
That is why the down the shore stuff is so tough. Dog is thinking that he should either be in the water or out of it and down the shore is asking him to do both at the same time. so is on and off points and cutting corners and angle entries. After trust and confidence is established, that is the time the "fine line" type concepts start to become successfully accomplished.
Baby steps.
MP

[B3]

Thats why on tuneups you don't give collar corrections. Its not black and white. Its gray but this type exercise gives more "balance"

[B3]

This is the kind of training talk we used to have around this place

[claimsadj]

To the op, you have a great problem with your all age dog. That will straighten out over time as he gains confidence and learns its ok to go at the bird. I prefer mine to be approaching water marks from the fat side in training, it tells me they have water in their mind. There does come a point where the dog needs to be held to a higher standard however. There is a fine line between good effort and the dog using his training against you. It perfectly acceptable to handle your dog for goin too far just like you would when they cheat. JMO

[claimsadj]

I feel like swim by is 100% necessary. I may use it differently but I find I can create the proper mindset in my dog as it relates to water work by micro managing the return so to speak. I'm running all age with my dogs, some of the water marks in training are flat out big. I'm not handling my dog for minor infractions when they just swam 275 yards on the last mark in a set of singles. If I see honesty starting to degrade I can use the return to re establish it. Ill give a swim by in certain cases when they did nothin on the return to deserve it. I feels it puts less mental pressure on the dog to do this than to handle and put collar pressure on them on bigger marks. Good water work starts with a mindset. I also do a water mark drill that is extremely short, like start at 25 and end at 70. Very simple cheating singles but I demand perfection. One foot inside the bird gets you handled, failure to correct when I handle gets you flat out hammered. I've got two that can cheat with the best of them, one of which will no go chronically if you use pressure on the bigger marks. Juice I can do whatever with, his attitude never waivers. I've found their attitudes to water work has been great since I've been using this short drill, I've also found that when I revisit it I've got their number on the water for a couple good weeks. It all about the dogs mindset on the water, and this is the best way ive found to challenge them all while maintaining t a balanced dog. Great thread

[claimsadj]

I also want to add this, I don't believe in hot spots. I prefer to teach them the correct way to do things first, then correct when they stray from what we've taught. If that creates a hot spot then so be it. I feel like its lazy to make hot spots so the dog knows where not to go and not teach the correct way. Shortcuts get you no where, and I feel like burning or nicking on the return to make the bank hot is nothing more than that. That's not shaping your dogs mindset, that's being too lazy to put in the work to me.

[claimsadj]

Awesome post Travis, and dog that is taught the right way first then later corrected for deviating has a deeper understanding of what went wrong. They have a better chance to interpret and understand the correction, I couldn't agree more

.

Being one who doesnt do a formal swim by, I won't make the arguement for it being a nessessity... but hot spots are contrary to everything i want to teach my dog. Im correcting him for being someplace... im making a scary spot... he hasn't disobeyed, he simply did what was natrual. Im burning him without him knowing where he SHOULD be... he didnt make a desescion, he just did what was natrual. Im not saying cutting a cornor and a little tweak doesnt have its place, but as used as a true effort to decheat, its unfair to the dog and against what Im trying to teach. Dogs dont make great descions when they are scared or worried... they only make great descions when they are confident. travis