Gentlemen:
In its promotional literature, Moultrie Feeders proudly states: "We make the game hunt you". To which I ask, where is the sport in that?
I also submit for your consideration the following: There are no more than 20 million hunters in the US. There are about 5 million antihunters. That means the future of hunting will be determined by roughly 245 million non-hunters. Do you think those 245 million non-hunters would approve of conditioning deer to the sight, sound and smell of feeders and bait such that hunting is reduced to being there an hour before the feeder goes off and an hour after it quits?
Note that deer dont associate food plots with the sights, sounds and smells of humans since about the only time humans are present is when they are hunting, whereas the routine filling of feeders conditions deer to human presence. Also note that food plots are available to deer on a 24/7 basis. Hence, a hunter has to hunt from daylight to dark, 7 days a week to maximize the opportunity for a kill versus the hour before/hour after system with feeders. And food plots cant result in poisoning of deer or other species like happens when the feed in a feeder goes bad.
I believe that it is just a matter of time before the ANTIs air video on network television of deer getting blasted as they eat corn. A matter of time before an anti-hunting biologist comes on the air and states that deer become conditioned to baiting to the point where they associate the sight, sounds and smells of humans with food. Obviously without fear of the sight, sound and smells of humans, deer are defenseless against hunting. I do not believe the massive non-hunting majority will find such a situation acceptable.
One other consideration: Doesn't hunting already cost enough? If baiting is legalized, then "baiting wars" will likely occur where adjoining landowners/hunting clubs try to "outbait" the other. Not only is this expensive, it also favors the rich guy versus the average sportsman.
For the above reasons and others, I believe it is time for hunters to take a stand against baiting and that Mississippi is the place where this stand must initially occur. I am extremely hopeful that the MSDUCKS community will join with the Mississippi Wildlife Federation and other organizations in opposing legalization of baiting deer and other wildlife. Efforts are now underway by MWF to go on the offense against legalization of baiting. Send me a PM if you would like to be on the email list for updates about those efforts.
HAMMER
LEGALIZATION OF BAITING
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marshman
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- Location: Orange Tx now. formerly Greenville MS
Well I guess its all about where and how you were raised. I grew up in Texas and no one thinks twice about the baiting issue. I personaly knew folks who didn't approve of baiting and they just didn't use it. Just because it was a legal thing did not mean it was mandatory. But most folks did use it. But when you get right down to it anything that helps lure game to you can be considered a baiting issue. So lets get rid of all types of calls, doe in heat scents, dominant buck urine, mock scrapes, rattling horns, decoys etc.......
(Boy, I know this will probably generate a lot of responses!)
(Boy, I know this will probably generate a lot of responses!)
Marshman: Few people in the South thought twice about segregation 50 years ago- that did not make it right. Few people in the Middle East today think twice about not giving equal rights to women- that doesnt make it right and is one reason we are at war in Iraq- to break the culture of oppression that allows terrorism to thrive. Nobody paid much attention to segregation until people like Malcolm X, MLK and Medgar Evers started raising hell about it. Nobody paid much attention to oppression in the Middle East until the terrorists started attacking US interests. And nobody is paying much attention to baiting yet, but I assure you that the ANTIs will get ahold of this and they will have much success in converting NONHUNTERS into ANTIs as a result.
As for the lures, calls, etc., I dont disagree on you with food based scent lures or crapola like Deer Cocaine but as for estrous scent, rattling horns, calls, etc, I do disagree. For one thing, they dont work very often and certainly cant be used to condition deer like bait can and in the case of horns and calls, they require some skill or they are worse than useless, they actually hurt the hunter.
The problem wiht bait from a hunting ethics standpoint is that it conditions deer not to be afraid of human sight, scent and sound and to be at a certain place at a certain time. Most nonhunters and many hunters do not accept that as fair chase.
I also dont accept fencing as fair chase nor do I accept using trail cameras to pattern deer as fair chase. More importantly, nonhunters dont accept this. For example, my wife and I were having dinner with one of my hunting buddies and his wife a couple of years ago. He told a story about a guy that had patterned a buck coming to a food plot at 12:30 PM three days in a row. The day after picking up the developed photos, the guy kills the 140 class, 8 point in the food plot at 12:30PM. My buddy is a serious hunter with young kids, meaning his wife supports his hunting, but she went ballastic over this. She just did not think it was fair and neither do I.
Hunting should be about connecting to the primal instincts in us. It should not be about using the latest technology and gadgets to kill animals. But its a free country and I dont think trail cameras are a threat to my future hunting so I'll let that one go but I do think baiting is such a threat as do many of the 3000+ members of the Mississippi Wildlife Federation. That is why they are fighting it and thats why I am with them.
HAMMER
As for the lures, calls, etc., I dont disagree on you with food based scent lures or crapola like Deer Cocaine but as for estrous scent, rattling horns, calls, etc, I do disagree. For one thing, they dont work very often and certainly cant be used to condition deer like bait can and in the case of horns and calls, they require some skill or they are worse than useless, they actually hurt the hunter.
The problem wiht bait from a hunting ethics standpoint is that it conditions deer not to be afraid of human sight, scent and sound and to be at a certain place at a certain time. Most nonhunters and many hunters do not accept that as fair chase.
I also dont accept fencing as fair chase nor do I accept using trail cameras to pattern deer as fair chase. More importantly, nonhunters dont accept this. For example, my wife and I were having dinner with one of my hunting buddies and his wife a couple of years ago. He told a story about a guy that had patterned a buck coming to a food plot at 12:30 PM three days in a row. The day after picking up the developed photos, the guy kills the 140 class, 8 point in the food plot at 12:30PM. My buddy is a serious hunter with young kids, meaning his wife supports his hunting, but she went ballastic over this. She just did not think it was fair and neither do I.
Hunting should be about connecting to the primal instincts in us. It should not be about using the latest technology and gadgets to kill animals. But its a free country and I dont think trail cameras are a threat to my future hunting so I'll let that one go but I do think baiting is such a threat as do many of the 3000+ members of the Mississippi Wildlife Federation. That is why they are fighting it and thats why I am with them.
HAMMER
Hunting should be about connecting to the primal instincts in us. It should not be about using the latest technology and gadgets to kill animals.
Make it illegal to deer hunt with rifles, rifled slug barrels and muzzleloaders. Just like turkey hunting, if you can't get within 30-40 yards of the animal, you don't need to be killing it. Shooting a deer at 300 yards is not hunting - its shooting. I have heard this argument from ANTIs as well.
Where oh where do we draw the line. I agree with you, Hammer, in that whatever I do, I don't want to give the ANTIs any ammunition to use against the sport of hunting, even if I as a hunter have to sacrifice a little bit.
No doubt that killing a deer within 30-40 yards is more sporting than killing a deer at 300 yards, but does that make the 300 yard kill unethical? I dont think so since it took skill and practice to make that shot and the animal is no dumber after the shot than before...Baiting takes no skill, no practice and makes the animal dumber...That is where I and many other hunters draw the line...Note that baiting is LEGAL in only a handful of states...In most states, baiting is ILLEGAL and is ILLEGAL for a reason....TX and LA were wrong in legalizing baiting and it will come back to haunt all of us...Baiting is ILLEGAL in Mississippi and should stay that way...That is the subject of this thread...Not trying to justify baiting by suggesting that other hunting tactics are not sporting either...
For that matter, the most sporting way to hunt deer is catch them, wrestle them to the ground and break their necks. Does that mean that all other forms of hunting are UNETHICAL and should be ILLEGAL? The next most sporting way is to spear them or kill them with a rock. Does that mean that all other forms are UNETHICAL and should be ILLEGAL? Obviously not so Marshman and Gottahunt's logic has lots of holes in it.
Keep your eyes on the ball: BAITING and how to stop it from being legalized in MISSISSIPPI. No matter what game you hunt, this issue should be of importance to you since it makes us very vulnerable to ANTI efforts to convert NONHUNTERS to their cause.
HAMMER
For that matter, the most sporting way to hunt deer is catch them, wrestle them to the ground and break their necks. Does that mean that all other forms of hunting are UNETHICAL and should be ILLEGAL? The next most sporting way is to spear them or kill them with a rock. Does that mean that all other forms are UNETHICAL and should be ILLEGAL? Obviously not so Marshman and Gottahunt's logic has lots of holes in it.
Keep your eyes on the ball: BAITING and how to stop it from being legalized in MISSISSIPPI. No matter what game you hunt, this issue should be of importance to you since it makes us very vulnerable to ANTI efforts to convert NONHUNTERS to their cause.
HAMMER
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marshman
- Veteran
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- Location: Orange Tx now. formerly Greenville MS
Hammer,
You brought up some intresting points. Can't say I disagree with you on all of them, however my logic is not as full of holes as you say it is. The idea that deer become accustomed to the sight, sounds and smells of humans doesn't always fly. As I said earlier I grew up in Texas and spent many a day perched in a stand or shooting house overlooking a feeder or pile of corn and saw nothing but squirrels. I even spooked a few deer as I moved a little to get in position for a shot. So I've seen first hand that deer will ignore human contact just so they can get there belly full of corn. Its not some sort of magnet that will draw them in every time.
I do realize though that in some areas this may be partly true however. A friend of mine has 20 acres in a semi-suburban area and we have seen deer in his field behind the house with his kids and dogs playing in the front. But these deer are used to the all the noise and commotion that people can make. He has several close neighbors too. Deer that are farthur out from civiliation would be more leery of all the human contact.
Don't get me wrong, I"m not saying that Mississippi should legalize baiting I just think there is a lot of mis-guided information going around. I don't know if you have ever hunted over bait but I for one have spent many a dollar on bags of corn back in Texas and the results were'nt all that impressive.
By the way I've lived here in Mississippi now for 3 years and love it here, and have taken more deer since I've been here than any other 3 year period in Texas. And all without the aid of bait.
You brought up some intresting points. Can't say I disagree with you on all of them, however my logic is not as full of holes as you say it is. The idea that deer become accustomed to the sight, sounds and smells of humans doesn't always fly. As I said earlier I grew up in Texas and spent many a day perched in a stand or shooting house overlooking a feeder or pile of corn and saw nothing but squirrels. I even spooked a few deer as I moved a little to get in position for a shot. So I've seen first hand that deer will ignore human contact just so they can get there belly full of corn. Its not some sort of magnet that will draw them in every time.
I do realize though that in some areas this may be partly true however. A friend of mine has 20 acres in a semi-suburban area and we have seen deer in his field behind the house with his kids and dogs playing in the front. But these deer are used to the all the noise and commotion that people can make. He has several close neighbors too. Deer that are farthur out from civiliation would be more leery of all the human contact.
Don't get me wrong, I"m not saying that Mississippi should legalize baiting I just think there is a lot of mis-guided information going around. I don't know if you have ever hunted over bait but I for one have spent many a dollar on bags of corn back in Texas and the results were'nt all that impressive.
By the way I've lived here in Mississippi now for 3 years and love it here, and have taken more deer since I've been here than any other 3 year period in Texas. And all without the aid of bait.
Shooting a deer at 300 yards is not hunting - its shooting. I have heard this argument from ANTIs as well.
Didn't say it was my logic nor did I mean to throw us way of the baiting topic. I was making the point that I have heard an anti-hunter family member make comments about how silly it is to be able to "blast an unsuspecting deer at 300 yards with a magnum rifle and 12 power scope". Not to mention "how dagerous it is to have a weapon that can send a bullet several miles". It is about perception. Yes, baiting is a topic that the ANTIs can use as fuel for their fire. All hunting tactics are under fire from the ANTIs. Hunters have a big responsibilty in how they represent their sport and baiting or not baiting is a piece of that. We all may have different opinions on food plots, deer suckers, scents, rattling, cameras, etc. , but wherever the line is drawn for what is legal or not, we still must be very mindful of how we use and apply what is legal.
Good takes Gentlemen...Marshman saying baiting not as effective in some circumstances as others...Gottahunt saying other currently legal practices may not be sporting and pointing out that ANTIs will say anything to justify their position....Frankly, it is not the current ANTIs that worry me...It is the potential for NONHUNTERS to become ANTIs.
You bet we got it good in MS...That is another reason I am against baiting...Why on Earth try to fix something that aint broke?
I hate that we will spend a bunch of time and money fighting baiting when those resources would be better used promoting QDM (quality deer management). Fact is, as good as our deer hunting is, if every MS deer hunter shot enough does to keep the herd in balance with the land and let young bucks walk, MS would be the best deer hunting in the US (since we got the best dirt).
HAMMER
You bet we got it good in MS...That is another reason I am against baiting...Why on Earth try to fix something that aint broke?
I hate that we will spend a bunch of time and money fighting baiting when those resources would be better used promoting QDM (quality deer management). Fact is, as good as our deer hunting is, if every MS deer hunter shot enough does to keep the herd in balance with the land and let young bucks walk, MS would be the best deer hunting in the US (since we got the best dirt).
HAMMER
Bait bill has died in conference...I am very happy it did...Now we must ensure we keep vigilant continue the fight against it thru the Wildlife Federation, MBA and NWTF. The same loser legislators who sponsored this piece of crap legislation are now strong arming the Senate on a budget for the MDWFP. They are trying to withhold $9 million of our tax money we paid, money thats not a part of the MS general fund. This is money WE raised thru taxes, fees etc, and cannot be legally used for anything else...Main players in the house are Frierson (real estate), Nicholson (insurance agent)...remember Nicholson statement, "they gotta catch me first"?, Eaton (cull cow plant) and Bentz...plus some others...Make sure they know that we vote and we will remember them in 3 years.....SO what LA and TX do it...LA has the most screwed up deer hunting youve ever seen...and I dont see flocks of MS deer hunters flooding LA...they want to bait, I say hunt in LA.....
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MSDuckmen
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I just attended a meeting held by the MDWF and it was very unsettling how different user groups belittled the other. Still hunters vs. dog hunters, coon hunters vs. turkey hunters.
Hunters are their own worst enemy. If we lose this privaledge to hunt it will because we continue to devide in our own logic of what is right and what is wrong.
I say let the Department of game and fish manage the resource and learn to live with those that feel different about hunting another way.
Stand up for the resource and learn to co-exist.
Those that refuse to will be the very ones that blame the others for the down fall of this great heritage we now have.
Hunters are their own worst enemy. If we lose this privaledge to hunt it will because we continue to devide in our own logic of what is right and what is wrong.
I say let the Department of game and fish manage the resource and learn to live with those that feel different about hunting another way.
Stand up for the resource and learn to co-exist.
Those that refuse to will be the very ones that blame the others for the down fall of this great heritage we now have.
Deer hunters are always feuding with each other. You got bowhunters that didn't like compound bows. Now crossbows are entering the picture. The battle of the dog hunters vs. still hunters was epic. Now baiting is poised to top them all. Duckmen is right, there's a lot of useless bickering, but doesn't the line have to be drawn somewhere? Is the baiting issue that line?
Sad thing is, duck hunters appear to be headed down the same path of bickering.
mottlet
Sad thing is, duck hunters appear to be headed down the same path of bickering.
mottlet
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MSDuckmen
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The problem here is that it is not a divide and conquer scenario going on. It is a constant endless quest to prove that it is your way or the highway. I have been guilty of this in the past with spinners and as you can see from my past post I don’t push that down people’s throat anymore. What’s the point they are not going to stop using them and I’m never going to agree that they are good for the resource.
Let’s look at it this way.
Member one
I’m a member of Delta Water fowl I know that my organization is right and all you DU guys are wrong and are simple pissed off because we are taking a portion of your money. I still Hunt only and I feel dog hunting is wrong. I think shooting over bait is a joke and anyone that does it is too.
Member two.
I’m a member of DU and I think habitat is the most important factor in duck production and Delta needs to focus on that first, I Dog hunt and have since I was a little guy and nothing is more about deer hunting than hearing the dogs on a hot trail. I also have hunted over bait and it is nothing like what people think, Deer don’t just walk up and start feeding just because it there. It just gives me more opportunity to see more deer and it still the same end result a dead deer. If that appeals to me why is it that it bothers you?
The two members above believes in what they are saying and believe it so much, that in there minds, this is really what they are saying.
My beliefs are right and yours are wrong unless you believe in the same thing I believe in.
I’m a member of the this group and my group is always right and you are always wrong unless I decide to be a member of the same group your in.
All this time you have the fence walkers going “dang†I don’t want to be a member of either. Anti’s are rolling on the floor saying even these rednecks can’t get along with each other this is just too easy.
There comes a time when you have to sit back and understand the bigger picture. You have to know that you are doing more damage to the resource with all the “my way or highway†remarks.
The majority of you sit on here crying like a bunch of little boys over who is right and who is wrong when you should be doing something about it. You should be standing up for the resource. Watching the legislation and creating support groups to help to push bills through the system to come to a common agreement. After all it is the laws that matter the rest is just your personal, ethical, moral feelings. None of you have the right to hunt in Mississippi. Why? Because you set on your butts and allowed a group of representatives to tell you that you are not worthy of that right. Many of you will also sit on your butts typing this whinny crap about who is right and who is wrong instead of doing something about it. Talk is cheap…. And there is a lot of cheap stuff going on around here.
JM2CW
Let’s look at it this way.
Member one
I’m a member of Delta Water fowl I know that my organization is right and all you DU guys are wrong and are simple pissed off because we are taking a portion of your money. I still Hunt only and I feel dog hunting is wrong. I think shooting over bait is a joke and anyone that does it is too.
Member two.
I’m a member of DU and I think habitat is the most important factor in duck production and Delta needs to focus on that first, I Dog hunt and have since I was a little guy and nothing is more about deer hunting than hearing the dogs on a hot trail. I also have hunted over bait and it is nothing like what people think, Deer don’t just walk up and start feeding just because it there. It just gives me more opportunity to see more deer and it still the same end result a dead deer. If that appeals to me why is it that it bothers you?
The two members above believes in what they are saying and believe it so much, that in there minds, this is really what they are saying.
My beliefs are right and yours are wrong unless you believe in the same thing I believe in.
I’m a member of the this group and my group is always right and you are always wrong unless I decide to be a member of the same group your in.
All this time you have the fence walkers going “dang†I don’t want to be a member of either. Anti’s are rolling on the floor saying even these rednecks can’t get along with each other this is just too easy.
There comes a time when you have to sit back and understand the bigger picture. You have to know that you are doing more damage to the resource with all the “my way or highway†remarks.
The majority of you sit on here crying like a bunch of little boys over who is right and who is wrong when you should be doing something about it. You should be standing up for the resource. Watching the legislation and creating support groups to help to push bills through the system to come to a common agreement. After all it is the laws that matter the rest is just your personal, ethical, moral feelings. None of you have the right to hunt in Mississippi. Why? Because you set on your butts and allowed a group of representatives to tell you that you are not worthy of that right. Many of you will also sit on your butts typing this whinny crap about who is right and who is wrong instead of doing something about it. Talk is cheap…. And there is a lot of cheap stuff going on around here.
JM2CW
RE MSDUCKMEN:
I've paid a lot of dues in hunting and conservation movement/industry some in the for profit arena and some in the non-profit arena, some as a paid staff person, some as a volunteer, so I'm about the last guy that you want to say "talk is cheap" to.
The whole point of this thread was to round up a group of guys from MSDUCKS to get involved in fighting the legalization of baiting because I believe it is THE LITMUS TEST issue that non-hunters will judge hunting by. I believe that I am in a position to have an informed opinion on this issue. I also believe that your comments about "cant we all just get along" are disingenuous when it comes to this issue because of the overwhelming number of states that are against baiting, the very few states that are for it and the fact that baiting is ILLEGAL in MS. Your comments relative to "let the MDWFP handle it" are also misleading since it is MDWFP that is asking hunters and hunter groups such as MWF to fight baiting.
This is very different from the dog hunting issue since dog hunting has been LEGAL in MS for a very long time. This is about turning something that is ILLEGAL into something that is LEGAL. It is ILLEGAL largely because MDWFP biologists are opposed to it but they are being strong armed by politicians in the Legislature and possibly by political appointees on the Wildlife Commission.
But I will admit that your approach is the approach being taken by Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young when they allow baited animals into their records book via a policy that says if it is legal in the state you take the animal, then it is fair chase. Read a little of Teddy Roosevelts writings or Aldo Leopolds writings and you will realize how ridiculous that policy is when judged with a long term perspective.
I might agree with one thing you said. Talk is cheap. So far I have not gotten a single PM from anybody interested in joining the MWF group that is forming to fight legalization of baiting. If any of yall are against baiting and are willing to do more than talk about it, MWF is the way to get involved in this fight. Send me a PM and I will be happy to hook you up or call MWF directly at 601-206-5703. Whatever, just get involved. The next 9 months could be our last chance to prevent baiting from being legalized in MS.
HAMMER
PS I agree with you about spinners for the same reasons I am opposed to baiting, namely they make us look real bad to non-hunters and they lessen the degree of skill necessary for successful hunting...I owned a couple of spinners when I had an outfitting business but sold them with the business...To be honest with you, I am embarassed that I ever hunted with them and I will never hunt with them again.
I've paid a lot of dues in hunting and conservation movement/industry some in the for profit arena and some in the non-profit arena, some as a paid staff person, some as a volunteer, so I'm about the last guy that you want to say "talk is cheap" to.
The whole point of this thread was to round up a group of guys from MSDUCKS to get involved in fighting the legalization of baiting because I believe it is THE LITMUS TEST issue that non-hunters will judge hunting by. I believe that I am in a position to have an informed opinion on this issue. I also believe that your comments about "cant we all just get along" are disingenuous when it comes to this issue because of the overwhelming number of states that are against baiting, the very few states that are for it and the fact that baiting is ILLEGAL in MS. Your comments relative to "let the MDWFP handle it" are also misleading since it is MDWFP that is asking hunters and hunter groups such as MWF to fight baiting.
This is very different from the dog hunting issue since dog hunting has been LEGAL in MS for a very long time. This is about turning something that is ILLEGAL into something that is LEGAL. It is ILLEGAL largely because MDWFP biologists are opposed to it but they are being strong armed by politicians in the Legislature and possibly by political appointees on the Wildlife Commission.
But I will admit that your approach is the approach being taken by Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young when they allow baited animals into their records book via a policy that says if it is legal in the state you take the animal, then it is fair chase. Read a little of Teddy Roosevelts writings or Aldo Leopolds writings and you will realize how ridiculous that policy is when judged with a long term perspective.
I might agree with one thing you said. Talk is cheap. So far I have not gotten a single PM from anybody interested in joining the MWF group that is forming to fight legalization of baiting. If any of yall are against baiting and are willing to do more than talk about it, MWF is the way to get involved in this fight. Send me a PM and I will be happy to hook you up or call MWF directly at 601-206-5703. Whatever, just get involved. The next 9 months could be our last chance to prevent baiting from being legalized in MS.
HAMMER
PS I agree with you about spinners for the same reasons I am opposed to baiting, namely they make us look real bad to non-hunters and they lessen the degree of skill necessary for successful hunting...I owned a couple of spinners when I had an outfitting business but sold them with the business...To be honest with you, I am embarassed that I ever hunted with them and I will never hunt with them again.
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