steel shot? why?

[Double_R]

Cry me a river. Lead toxemia was documented back in the early 1930's and by the 1940's - 50 years prior to the nontoxic mandate! - it was absolutely conclusive that lead shot killed ducks when ingested. Some research revealed that (1) as few as one #6 lead pellet could kill ducks and (2) that 145,000+ lead pellets per acre were present in some wetlands. It is a crying damned shame, not that we have to shoot steel, but that it took half a century for something to be done about it.

[goosebruce]

No, I'm not a member of the sierra club. But I did stay in a holiday inn express once.

You have a large scale hog farm.. Are you the enemy? Well, are you following the laws set forth about runoff? Are you perfectly happy with the effect of your operation on the local environment? If your not posioning a stream and tainting well water, then all you are is a hard working man, who provides my fatass with bacon and sau-sage... How could you be the enemy? But if you are letting profits make you slide on your environmental impact, then hell yeah your the enemy. You tell me which one ya are. I'm guessing, your clean or you wouldn't have asked.

The local williams refinery was in the paper monday. It's located right next to the prime bassing hole in memphis city limits (mckeller lake, and if you ain't fished it, don't laugh). Apprently, they "@#$%#" up how they calculate benzine emmisions, and have been putting much more of another one of those naturally occuring things that willl kill people into the air. To actually get their emmisions reduced, they would have to revamp, at the cost of millions of dollars of course. But now they are for sale, and apprently the problem had nothing to do with the sale, cause they commisioned someone in JAN to tell them they where wrong. Just havent gotten around to fixing it I guess.

Now I burn gasoline. And odds are, a lot of it comes from that refinery. No way can anyone claim complete innocence on polution. Difference is, them guys saved millions by putting posion in the air. No, actually, they made millions, becuase they are selling their product at a fair market price, and the market demands a standard of cleaniness. Those guys, are without a doubt, the enemy. I've breathed that $#!+. Everyone in that park, and in those neighborhoods have breathed that $#!+. And the only one that profited from it, are the guys that didnt pay to have the right $#!+ on their plant.

They had a 4 day stretch where they output more sulfar dioxide than the law allows. EPA is leveling a 25 grand a day fine for that. 100k in 4 days. Guess what, they figgered dat $#!+ out in 4 days, and came clean on it. The law is written where one is worst than the other, and the law made them fix one problem, yet profits let them overlook another.

I don't want that plant closed. Man, lots of folks work there. And we'd have to have the gas refined from there, from somewhere else. But by God any plant that spits out a carcigen for at least a year they knew about, in unlawful numbers, there shouldn't be a swinging dick in the place that profited from that. Wonder what the corprate stockholders would think about a refinery that had their profits yanked for clean air violations... Not fines, cause they made enough to cover them. The freggin ass profits... It wouldn't happen again... not their, not anywhere.

But the average person, drives by on the interstate and thinks, man it stinks down here. Didnt see that on the news. Havent heard anyone talk about it. Every single one of us, ought to be madder than hell stuff like that goes on. They profited from posioning us. Maybe not your house, maybe not even anyone you know. It doesn't matter. Your world is worst off, for their wallet. And that is my defintion of the enemy. travis

[Bodean]

One of the USFWS reports says lead poisoned waterfowl were documented as early as 1894.

The Brits knew and documented asbestos related health hazards in the 1890's. How many thousands of people have died from asbestos related diseases that could have possibly been avoided?

The science continues to evolve on all of these issues, but the underlying question often is how much risk you are willing to live with and how much you are willing to discount benefits to your fellow man and future generations.

Talking about this stuff may not seem important to some folks, but they are wrong. Talking, debating this stuff out, is a first step to making some positive changes. That is what I see as the benefit to this thread . . . that & gettin to laugh with the Goose & others.

Goose -- One of the fine mechanisms within the EPA is based upon economic benefits received due to the non-compliance. This mechanism is not often used.

[Labs & Ducks]

If anyone needs to write a Thesis or Dissertation, PRINT ALL OF THIS OFF. I've been reading this daily and it is apparent there has been A LOT of research go into this lead vs steel thing. What probably started out as trying to prove someone right or wrong has turned into probably one of the deepest researched topics I've ever read on here.

Here's my two cents worth. Coming from an environmental, health, and safety background, lead is toxic. Causes all sorts of CNS (Central Nervous System) problems, among other things. Why exactly the legislation was passed to rid lead shot, well that is sorta like who shot JFK. No matter who did it, the end result is the same, JFK is dead. So is lead shot for waterfowl. Steel shot can be just as effective as lead IF guns are patterned, the right choke is selected, and the shooter gets use to steel shot. Steel does shoot different TO ME as far, it may not someone else. It took some getting used to, but that is all I have ever shot duck hunting due to when I started duck hunting. I think the most important thing to do is know your gun and shells, and shoot within you effective range and comfort.

Have I ever shot ducks that I knew I hit and they kept going, SURE. I've done the same thing with lead shooting doves. One thing I can say though, a good dog is worth it's weight in gold with any type of wing shooting. It will sure reduce the number of cripples that are lost. The dangdest thing I ever saw was a Sprig we shot last year, knew he was hit, without a doubt. He flew approximately 400 yards and fell out of the air stone cold dead. I admit, I blamed that on steel shot. However, I turned around and did the same thing this past dove season. I shot a dove that I KNEW I hit. It flew about 100 yards or so and turned belly up. So, I guess that proved to me that steel or lead, it can happen either way.

I know this post will probably add no value to this thread, but anyway.

[River Hunter]

Has anyone thought about how hard steel shot is on your gun not to mention how bad it sux for duck hunting.

[Bodean]

Has anyone thought about how hard steel shot is on your gun not to mention how bad it sux for duck hunting.

River- Where you been man? What do you mean about being hard on your gun? What are you shootin, a damascus (sp) barrel? As for steel shoot "sux" -- dead ducks don't tell tales . . . lots of folks shootin lots of ducks stone cold dead with steel . . . if you have hard evidence of it not gettin the job done, post-away . . . I want to see the data but it needs to be something more than that duck just flew away & dropped dead way out there . . .

By the way, there "ain't" nobody making "anyone" shoot steel shot. You pick the shells up yourself and load them in that gun and pull the trigger. If you do not want to shoot steel, then shot one of the other legally approved non-toxic shots or stop shooting. If you elect to stop shooting, let me know as I will guard your decoys for you but I will be shooting some fast steel.

[River Hunter]

Whatever bodean if you tell me steel shot is not harder on your barrel your crazy. Which is harder steel or lead

[Stano]

click happy whoops

[Stano]

I thinks them gun manufactures did it too.............they knew the steel was gonna were out guns faster so they got rich off wore out gun sales ta'bootl man.......... Heck guys you fellows can still duck hunt with lead,over corn, what ever HEH may cost ya a little more but what tha heck:::snicker::::

And ya a golf pencil about somes it up DOC....Its writin fine fine fine tho unless sombody else has been slippin my wife some LEAD Goose you ain't been at my house have ya?

I didn't say my pencil was full of lead Im the one what said Graphite dingle berry

Im tryin to quit dipin too guys I figuer worm wieghts to be pretty safe maybe a split shot or two between the gum and three lips

[mallardhunter]

Steel shot harder on guns? Have you guys every cut open a steel shotshell and examined the thing - comparing it to a lead shot shell? Steel shotshells are made with a thick, plastic wad that totall encases the shot. The steel does not contact the barrell. Only the plastic wadding contacts the barrell. In an old lead shell, the plastic wad only goes about half way up the shot, allowing the lead to contact the barrell. Now, what's harder, lead or that plastic wad?

If you can't shoot steel successfully at ducks, I can help you. PM me if you want help and don't want to post it publicly, or post it here if you want it out on the open. I'm flexible. I'll provide a questionnaire and you provide the answers. We can solve your problems with steel shot. I cannot, however, help your accuracy much over the 'net.

If you want to see it work in person, invite me to hunt, and I'll roll 'em graveyard dead inside 35 yards with steel out of an old, 2&3/4-inch 12-gauge gun. I've done it for that one ole Mississippi boy who didn't believe steel would kill (and he couldn't kill 'em with steel, until he followed my advice).

[sportsman450]

Steel shot harder on guns? Have you guys every cut open a steel shotshell and examined the thing - comparing it to a lead shot shell? Steel shotshells are made with a thick, plastic wad that totall encases the shot. The steel does not contact the barrell. Only the plastic wadding contacts the barrell. In an old lead shell, the plastic wad only goes about half way up the shot, allowing the lead to contact the barrell. Now, what's harder, lead or that plastic wad?

While the steel shot is incased in hard plastic,it still will not compress.Therefore.it does put more damaging pressure on the barrel,than lead which does compress.This is why it's not reccomended to shoot lead in older weaker barrels.

Regardless of where you stand on the ecological issue,steel is harder on gun barrels than lead!

[mallardhunter]

Almost half the hunters contacted in an Ohio opinion survey taken in 1978 believed that steel shot would damage their guns; 40 percent thought that steel shot would expand the choke and 36 percent thought it would scour the barrel (Smith and Townsend 1981:6). Although the likelihood of excessive gun barrel damage was disproved long ago, the notion lingers. Nearly a decade ago, the three major arms and ammunition companies stated that steel shot causes no significant reduction in the life of most modern full-choke shotguns (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 1976). Roster (1978a:6) received no reports or claims of barrel damage after 18,000 rounds of steel shot had been fired. The plastic shot cups prevent steel shot from eroding the barrel. Some choke expansion may occur in full- choked, thinwalled, soft steel shotguns, some Brownings of early vintage, and shotguns with sharp-angled or swadged full choke (Roster 1978a). Magnum lead loads also cause chokes to expand. When there is a minor choke expansion in modern guns, it is largely cosmetic. We find no evidence that steel loads adversely affect modern gun barrels, and barrel damage, therefore, is not a valid reason for refusing to use steel shot.

Source:
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/othr ... xicosi.htm

[Bodean]

Riverhunter,

You got one thing correct, I am crazy but not because of any believe about steel shot and possible barrel damage . . . what a bunch of huey . . . however, I am all ears if you can you back up what you are saying. Give it up if you got it.

So what, steel is harder than lead . . . it does not automatically add up that steel is harder on your barrels . . . I do not personally know a soul who has experienced ANY barrel damage as a result of shooting steel shot.

Bodean

[Bodean]

[/quote]

While the steel shot is incased in hard plastic,it still will not compress.Therefore.it does put more damaging pressure on the barrel,than lead which does compress.This is why it's not reccomended to shoot lead in older weaker barrels.

Regardless of where you stand on the ecological issue,steel is harder on gun barrels than lead! [/quote]

I disagree with you just in the distinction between "allowable pressures" and "damaging pressures". Do you see the difference? I believe the real difference is in the powders rather than differences in compression between lead and steel.

You may want to also re-read your post, particularly that part about shooting lead shot in older barrels.

[goosebruce]

This isn't Goosebruce, this is Jeff, just visiting and trying to kill some ducks and geese. Now that I got that out of the way, you all that are for lead are unbelievable!!! I now think that the whole theory of inbreeding in the south may be coming out in you all. I have never heard of anything so dumb and uninformed. There are countless studies quite a few of wich have been posted on here. I also have pictures at home of healthy duck and goose gizzards compared to lead poisoned gizzards, if you can't see the difference you are an idiot. Lead is toxic, and it's a natural element, and since that arguemnt is popular on here for you guys I propose mercury shot, would compress on impact and all. I must say though while catching up on this reading I did get quite the good buzz on my beers and found it very entertaining. WE should get people this pissed off at each othe more often, it is very amusing. I do really have to now wonder about the whole education system after looking at some of you guys thinking. Oh yeah one other thing the guy that started this was because his dad couldn't kill ducks with steel and he also mentioned he hadn't hunted ducks in ten years. I suppose the fact that he hadn't shot steel had nothing to do with that. Also if his dad had lead since it is so much better it would have been heat guided out of the barrel and all of those ducks he missed like crap would be stone cold dead! I am now going back to my road traveling hunting, see ya'll after the first of the year.