The dog is well behaved, under control, doesn't break, marks well, and follows hand signals well.
Has anyone had or heard of a similar situation
Any suggestions Retriever Question
Retriever Question
I have a 3 year old yellow lab. I've had him for one year and I am his third owner. I'm told that he was given up by the first two owners because of lack of time to train him. I found out on his first dove hunt that he was hardmouth. He wasn't eating birds just being a little rough and pulling out feathers. I tried to discourage this by scolding him, using frozen birds to train, and even wrapping the birds in cloth to keep him from tearing them up. Didn't work, so finally I busted his ass good one day. He wouldn't go near a bird for several weeks. I gradually built his confidence back up with fresh killed and frozen birds and a check cord and lots of praise. He no longer tears up birds but more often than not he will not retrieve over dry ground. He will go to the bird pick it up and drop it. He does great over water, even 2 inches of water. If his feet are wet he'll retrieve
The dog is well behaved, under control, doesn't break, marks well, and follows hand signals well.
Has anyone had or heard of a similar situation Any suggestions
The dog is well behaved, under control, doesn't break, marks well, and follows hand signals well.
Has anyone had or heard of a similar situation
Any suggestions -
Drakeshead
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I am afraid that your dog associates his scolding that you gave him with the retrieve that he made, not because he had hard mouth. There are several places like Macks Prairie Wings (Stuttgart, AR), Gun Dog Supply ( Jackson, MS) and Dogs Afield (online catalog) where you can buy a harness that will wrap around your cold or live game that has points on it to keep the dog for bitting down too hard.
Try it out if you want and I am sure others will reply. Some may not like my idea.
Try it out if you want and I am sure others will reply. Some may not like my idea.
Retriever question
Your pup associates the correction you made with the bird, this is the reason that he won't retrieve on land. Just be patient with him and he will come around. However if this persist you might want to consider having him force fetched. This will renforce holding the bird without being rough on it as well as give you a tool to help overcome the retrieving on land. Time and patients will cure alot of problems, evidently your correction stuck and you will have to work through it or put him through force fetch.
North winds and low sky. Drakes only!!!!!!!
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goosebruce
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Of course the dog doesn't break and is under control... he's too scared to pick up a bird. When a 'correction' goes to the point of a dog won't retreive at all it's abuse. The dog obviously didn't know what he was corrected for, cause now he won't go at all. For a correction to be effective, the dog has to know WHY and HOW TO GET OUT OF IT. Your dog didn't know either. Your 'busting his ass' for not knowing what you wanted was bad enough for him to give up on his one of the things dogs love most... birds. That's sad.
Most dogs mouth doves. They have small feathers that come off in their mouth, and generally dogs are hot and slobbery when picking them up. Most dogs don't do a good job holding doves on a hot dove field.
Teach the dog to hold. Hold is a seprate command, and start with your hand in his mouth. He won't bite down too hard on your hand (well, in this case he might, but you got one coming from him).. It's not the action of him grabbing it, it's the very act of holding it. Place your hand in his mouth. Then a bumper, then a bird. Make him understand that to HOLD, is a good thing. Make him hold something, and when he does it well, make a big deal over it. Place bumper in his mouth, HOLD, and let him hold it for a few minutes. DROP (or give, or whutever) and take bird. Do this until you can tap on it and he'll hold. He won't hold too tight, cause you started with your hand... if he holds loose, it'll fall out, just pick up and put in his mouth, and remind him with HOLD. When he holds, its a good thing, and let him know. He'll soon want to hold, and if he mouths something, grab his jowls (lightly!) and remind him to hold. Soon, if he mouths, you can tap the underside of his chin to remind him to hold. Bumper, bird, tolled up newspaper, lite beer, it soon wont matter, cause HOLD becomes an action all on its own. He'll soon realize that HOLD commands his mouth, like SIT does his butt.
When your dog will hold a burger patty without eating it, you got hold down. When your dog understands something that well, then a correction is effective, and fair. When your dog doesn't know what you want, and you just get mad and hollar, or 'bust his ass as you say' you have defintely not taught him anything and more than likely set yourself back.
This is a great instance of that.
A harness for a bird to make your dog not chomp down? Thats a crutch. Don't kid yourself that a dog learning something by accident is as good as a dog learning something and understanding it. If he understands it, he can apply it in every sitution, not just ones you have put him in. A harness may make him not chomp on doves or ducks, cause you used them... but will he make the connection to chuckers or quail? Or a stryofoam cup? Will you have control over his mouth, or a dog that doesn't chomp cause he got stuck a few times? Which one do you think is better in the long run? To not have this problem contiue to creep up? Spend the time to teach something right, and you never have to teach it again.
Marty's right about force fetch. It's the next step for true control over a dogs mouth, and it would have given you a way to deal with a no go, no matter the reason. You'll need some help to properly force fetch a 3 year old dog that already has some mouth quirks. Contact a local retreiver club, a knowledgable amature, or a local pro for force fetch help. travis
Most dogs mouth doves. They have small feathers that come off in their mouth, and generally dogs are hot and slobbery when picking them up. Most dogs don't do a good job holding doves on a hot dove field.
Teach the dog to hold. Hold is a seprate command, and start with your hand in his mouth. He won't bite down too hard on your hand (well, in this case he might, but you got one coming from him).. It's not the action of him grabbing it, it's the very act of holding it. Place your hand in his mouth. Then a bumper, then a bird. Make him understand that to HOLD, is a good thing. Make him hold something, and when he does it well, make a big deal over it. Place bumper in his mouth, HOLD, and let him hold it for a few minutes. DROP (or give, or whutever) and take bird. Do this until you can tap on it and he'll hold. He won't hold too tight, cause you started with your hand... if he holds loose, it'll fall out, just pick up and put in his mouth, and remind him with HOLD. When he holds, its a good thing, and let him know. He'll soon want to hold, and if he mouths something, grab his jowls (lightly!) and remind him to hold. Soon, if he mouths, you can tap the underside of his chin to remind him to hold. Bumper, bird, tolled up newspaper, lite beer, it soon wont matter, cause HOLD becomes an action all on its own. He'll soon realize that HOLD commands his mouth, like SIT does his butt.
When your dog will hold a burger patty without eating it, you got hold down. When your dog understands something that well, then a correction is effective, and fair. When your dog doesn't know what you want, and you just get mad and hollar, or 'bust his ass as you say' you have defintely not taught him anything and more than likely set yourself back.
This is a great instance of that.
A harness for a bird to make your dog not chomp down? Thats a crutch. Don't kid yourself that a dog learning something by accident is as good as a dog learning something and understanding it. If he understands it, he can apply it in every sitution, not just ones you have put him in. A harness may make him not chomp on doves or ducks, cause you used them... but will he make the connection to chuckers or quail? Or a stryofoam cup? Will you have control over his mouth, or a dog that doesn't chomp cause he got stuck a few times? Which one do you think is better in the long run? To not have this problem contiue to creep up? Spend the time to teach something right, and you never have to teach it again.
Marty's right about force fetch. It's the next step for true control over a dogs mouth, and it would have given you a way to deal with a no go, no matter the reason. You'll need some help to properly force fetch a 3 year old dog that already has some mouth quirks. Contact a local retreiver club, a knowledgable amature, or a local pro for force fetch help. travis
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Drakeshead
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A harness as a crutch? Ok, if I am a dog and I go and retrieve this thing and if I bite down on it too hard and it hurts me, then maybe next I will not bite down so hard. If the dog thinks that everytime he grabs something that it might stick him/her, is this not learned behavior?
If I teach one pup to "SIT" by slowly moving a treat from his/her nose towards the back of his/her head until his/her rearend goes down and I say "SIT" as the pup sits, and then give the pup the treat and learns that "SIT" means sit my rearend down, or if I put a leash on the pup give the command "SIT" and tug back and up on the leash until the dog sits and it learns that by me commanding "SIT" that the pup puts its rearend down. Is this not learned behavior? Different way, two different dogs, but neither method better than the other as long as you accomplish what you need to get across to the pup and the pup understands.
Newtduck had a question and I merely made a suggestion. I joined this forum not long ago to meet others around the state of MS that duck hunt so that we could share thoughts and ideas on the subject. Over the last few months I have come to realize that there are a few on here that are the know all and end all. I didn't tell him this was the ONLY way to keep your dog from chomping down on the game, but it is a suggestion. Anyone that has ever trained or worked with more than one dog knows that each one must be delt with differently. I just seems to bother me that if anyone has a suggest, especially new comers, that was not given by certain individuals on this forum, that we know nothing.
I do agree that Newtduck needs to work on the "HOLD" command and then possible "FORCE FETCH" command. But even in this situation I do not jump down anyones back, as others refer to it the same, but I do not like to refer to it as "FORCE FETCH". I refer to it as "COMMAND FETCH". The dog already has the retrieving bred in him/her so we are not forcing it to do anything, but we do want the dog to fetch on command. No matter the label, Newtdog might want to take that step next.
The first step the Newtduck has GOT to do is get the dog back to having fun with his retrieves.
If I teach one pup to "SIT" by slowly moving a treat from his/her nose towards the back of his/her head until his/her rearend goes down and I say "SIT" as the pup sits, and then give the pup the treat and learns that "SIT" means sit my rearend down, or if I put a leash on the pup give the command "SIT" and tug back and up on the leash until the dog sits and it learns that by me commanding "SIT" that the pup puts its rearend down. Is this not learned behavior? Different way, two different dogs, but neither method better than the other as long as you accomplish what you need to get across to the pup and the pup understands.
Newtduck had a question and I merely made a suggestion. I joined this forum not long ago to meet others around the state of MS that duck hunt so that we could share thoughts and ideas on the subject. Over the last few months I have come to realize that there are a few on here that are the know all and end all. I didn't tell him this was the ONLY way to keep your dog from chomping down on the game, but it is a suggestion. Anyone that has ever trained or worked with more than one dog knows that each one must be delt with differently. I just seems to bother me that if anyone has a suggest, especially new comers, that was not given by certain individuals on this forum, that we know nothing.
I do agree that Newtduck needs to work on the "HOLD" command and then possible "FORCE FETCH" command. But even in this situation I do not jump down anyones back, as others refer to it the same, but I do not like to refer to it as "FORCE FETCH". I refer to it as "COMMAND FETCH". The dog already has the retrieving bred in him/her so we are not forcing it to do anything, but we do want the dog to fetch on command. No matter the label, Newtdog might want to take that step next.
The first step the Newtduck has GOT to do is get the dog back to having fun with his retrieves.
command/force/whatever
Command Fetch/Force Fetch/Whatever....
Its force fetch...getting him to comply to something he wouldn't ordinarily do, or want to do on his own.....Compliance by force. Force being applied pressure, and the dog has been shown how to "turn off" the pressure. His natural ability is gonna be what leads him into figuring out what causes the pressure and how to avoid it. "Fetch" is a command...."Force Fetch" is a method for teaching various commands (hold, leave, fetch).
For pete's sakes, don't screw the dawg in the ground over something he has not been taught. That's like your folks beating you in the head over not knowing Algebra down cold by the second grade. Its not fair to the dog. Teach, teach, teach, teach, train, train, train, train,.....you get the jest? then, work the dog and teach the in's and out's of corrections, and before long, he'll have it down cold.
Its force fetch...getting him to comply to something he wouldn't ordinarily do, or want to do on his own.....Compliance by force. Force being applied pressure, and the dog has been shown how to "turn off" the pressure. His natural ability is gonna be what leads him into figuring out what causes the pressure and how to avoid it. "Fetch" is a command...."Force Fetch" is a method for teaching various commands (hold, leave, fetch).
For pete's sakes, don't screw the dawg in the ground over something he has not been taught. That's like your folks beating you in the head over not knowing Algebra down cold by the second grade. Its not fair to the dog. Teach, teach, teach, teach, train, train, train, train,.....you get the jest? then, work the dog and teach the in's and out's of corrections, and before long, he'll have it down cold.
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Drakeshead
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All I can say is that I have a pup that has never been force fetched. I can drop a bumper two feet in front of him and point at it and say "fetch" and he is going to get it. He wants it. I can without a doubt with the good LORD as my witness say that this dog has NEVER been force fetch trained.
Now, as stated before and I will state again, I am NOT against the force/command fetch, but to say that you are teaching the dog to do something that it normally would not do, then why do we call them retrievers?
When you force fetch a dog, the first step in the process is the "Hold" command as Goosebruce stated earlier. After that it is the "Fetch" command which is only and extension of the "Hold" command with the pup being shown an object and given the "Fetch" command followed by the "Hold" command.
Ok, now that I have probably ruffled some feathers, and that is not my intentions as this is a discussion of different views, Newtduck may actually have to "FORCE" his pup to retrieve since he may have broken the dog to want to do its natural instinct of retrieving. In this case, the dog will definately be forced to do something it does not want to do.
Ok, no matter how this all goes I hope everying has a Happy New Year and good luck.
Now, as stated before and I will state again, I am NOT against the force/command fetch, but to say that you are teaching the dog to do something that it normally would not do, then why do we call them retrievers?
When you force fetch a dog, the first step in the process is the "Hold" command as Goosebruce stated earlier. After that it is the "Fetch" command which is only and extension of the "Hold" command with the pup being shown an object and given the "Fetch" command followed by the "Hold" command.
Ok, now that I have probably ruffled some feathers, and that is not my intentions as this is a discussion of different views, Newtduck may actually have to "FORCE" his pup to retrieve since he may have broken the dog to want to do its natural instinct of retrieving. In this case, the dog will definately be forced to do something it does not want to do.
Ok, no matter how this all goes I hope everying has a Happy New Year and good luck.
ruffled feathers
Drakeshead,
if you was to ruffle my feathers, it dang sure wouldn't be the first time its ever been done. Don't worry about having to defend your opinions...their yours.
The difference, IMHO, between a force-fetched dog and a non-forced dog...... lay out on the ground:
a bumper
a gutt-shot duck
a dokken duck
a freshly drank coke can
Now, point at the coke can and say fetch.... five dollars bet says that the dog picks up the bumper or DFT. Teaching force fetch incorporates a certain degree of "no-ing" off a bird by being able to tell the dog "leave". You could teach bird selection without FF, but I don't imagine it being near as easy. My example is something you would never see somebody doing, but it will clearly show you a dog who is used to fetching certain items, and one who makes no "bones" about what particularly it is and just plain out fetches it.
if you was to ruffle my feathers, it dang sure wouldn't be the first time its ever been done. Don't worry about having to defend your opinions...their yours.
The difference, IMHO, between a force-fetched dog and a non-forced dog...... lay out on the ground:
a bumper
a gutt-shot duck
a dokken duck
a freshly drank coke can
Now, point at the coke can and say fetch.... five dollars bet says that the dog picks up the bumper or DFT. Teaching force fetch incorporates a certain degree of "no-ing" off a bird by being able to tell the dog "leave". You could teach bird selection without FF, but I don't imagine it being near as easy. My example is something you would never see somebody doing, but it will clearly show you a dog who is used to fetching certain items, and one who makes no "bones" about what particularly it is and just plain out fetches it.
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Delta Duck
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Newtduck,
Just remember that he will become your best friend if you want a best friend. The only advice I will give is to hunt him. The best training in the world is to be in a duck hole and shoot a couple of ducks. As soon as he has done his job hopefully a few minutes later he can do his job again.
The best training is a good duck hole.
You have trained dogs and then you have hunting dogs. I have a hunting dog. When we go out, It is my job to bust a big ole fat greenhead and it is his job to go out and check for jewlery and bring him back. We make a pretty good team.
Just remember to enjoy him!!
Just remember that he will become your best friend if you want a best friend. The only advice I will give is to hunt him. The best training in the world is to be in a duck hole and shoot a couple of ducks. As soon as he has done his job hopefully a few minutes later he can do his job again.
The best training is a good duck hole.
You have trained dogs and then you have hunting dogs. I have a hunting dog. When we go out, It is my job to bust a big ole fat greenhead and it is his job to go out and check for jewlery and bring him back. We make a pretty good team.
Just remember to enjoy him!!
"Ducks on the Brain"
It's always better with a good dog and good friends, Ducks and no Terrorist!
http://www.DeltaDucks.com
It's always better with a good dog and good friends, Ducks and no Terrorist!
http://www.DeltaDucks.com
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Drakeshead
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Dukdawgn, sorry if I came off the wrong way. Guess I was't in that great of a mood. Just that I have not been on this forum very long and have not made a lot of post, but it seems as though some people, not you, but some on here that may have been here since this thing started think that if you are not hunting or training there way, you are an #$%&ing idiot and need to leave. So, I did not mean to focus my hostilities on you. Anytime I make a post I try to present it as a suggest as I know my techniques may differ from others, are not better than others, and I am always learning as well.
Just wanted to make sure that I didn't come off the wrong way.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
Just wanted to make sure that I didn't come off the wrong way.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
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goosebruce
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DH, nobody especially me called you an idiot. In fact I never said anything of the sort. Your example of a spiked birdie harness and a treat to teach sit is perfect.. because they are both crutches. That dog that sits for treats will come across a time he WON'T sit. Yes, it's learned behavior... but it will not overcome the dog's will. That dog that sits for a treat won't sit at 40 yards for that treat... he won't sit when he's breaking on a bird for that treat, or when chasing a cat or anything that his will is stronger than that treat. Therefore, that treat is a crutch to keep from teaching your dog to sit. He'll sit sometimes, but he won't when he needs to the most, and he never will completely, because it's not been trained to the point he knows he must. Same with the birdie harness. He might not chomp today, or tommorrow, or maybe forever with a duck (or whatever you used in the harness), but does he truely understand HOLD, therefore can always be counted to do it? A crutch is anything you use to keep from actually training a concept. The difference between puppy training and dog training.
Read the orignal post... A 3 year old dog, with mouth problems, and now won't go because of an ill timed correction. What's the hurry to fix this problem for a while, or teach it where it will never come up again? What's more fair to the dog, a gimmick or teaching it?
Just because someone doesn't agree with a statement, doesn't mean they don't agree with you. Maybe your new to here, maybe the net, I don't know, but this median doesn't always translate well. I assure you, I meant nothing but to educate, not to degrade. And btw, I do happen to know everything, so it's a real drag living in an unperfect world... hehe.
FF is more than a dog picking up something at your feet. Dogs don't think like people, or work like people. A dog wants to please you (well, most do) but the want to please you will not overcome their own will, just like that scooby snackto sit when a better offer comes along won't. There will be a time a dog decides he's working (or not working) on his own. Hunt one enough, train one enough, be around dogs, and you will see this. All the desire in the world to go get a bird has nothing to do with a dog that suddenly decides he doesn't want to go get a bird for whatever reason. All of a sudden, his will overcomes his desire. It might be an illtimed correction like the orignal poster made, or it might be cold water, or it might be any number of things... What do you do to a nonforced dog? Nothing. You might correct him, but he doesn't know why. You might beg or plead him, maybe even happy him up a little and maybe get him going again, only to have the problem again and recur time after time. Progress stops when you regress. You have no way to make that dog go, and that has nothing driving him but his own will, and a dog's will isn't always the same as yours. FF, not only gives you complete control of a dogs mouth, it also makes fetch an enforced command. It makes go just as enforceable as stop or come. It makes the very ideal of forcing a dog to go almost not there, because once a dog understands (theirs that word again) he has an obligation to go, just like he has an obligation to follow every command given, he doesn't think not going is an option. He won't give up on a marked bird that he can't find, because when you sent him, he knew it was his job to get that bird. His job... not just his will. His will adds to that obligation, and without both you won't get very far. You can't do much with just a dogs will, nor with just obligation, but the both of them together are amazaing.
So know you got a dog that UNDERSTANDS his part of this. He UNDERSTANDS what HOLD means, what FETCH means, and he understands the corrections if he chooses to not obey. These problems, and set backs, don't happen to a dog that UNDERSTANDS. They happen to a dog that someone (and usually on accident or by not knowing) got the desired responce and thought their dog knows it. A dog that truely understands something, understands it anytime they see it. How many of these threads say, my dog sits in the yard fine, but if there are other dogs there, he won't sit? Do you think that dog understands sit? Or is simply sitting when its his will? What about the dog that breaks hunting, but wont in the yard? Because he sits when its convient to him, when his will overcomes a condtioned responce to sit, he breaks. If he truely understood sit, he'd sit. All the time, everytime. If he truely understood hold, he'd hold all the time, everytime. If he truely understands fetch, he will always go, and always pick up whatever directed too. All the time, everytime.
The orginal poster said he dog mouthed birds, got corrected, and then wouldn't go. If the dog was force fetched, the dog could have been corrected for the mouthing, and if he no go'd it could have been dealt with immedately, before it became a big deal. Right there on the spot, dog would be made to go, and after that, he'd go. Just like he was before. Instead, this dog got a correction he didn't understand, and now wont go. And the more times he doesn't go, the tougher it is to get him to go.
Anything you take the time to make things black and white for a dog he can understand, and he can understand it quite quickly. There are a lot of times other ways to do things to a dog, but to me at least, nothing is as fair as making a dog understand it. When a dog understands it, he's making the right choices and learning through sucess, instead of fear or worry. Dog's don't work well when they are scared.
My final gem of knowledge on force fetch and the thought that dogs have fetch bred into them, therefore ff doesn't make sense... is that every dog, no matter the breeding, sits on his own. Since it's real nice to be able to have them sit when we want them too, we teach them sit as an enforceable command. Fetching is as important as sitting, so only makes sense you'd want control over that now doesn't it?
Best training is a duck hole? Naw. Duck season is 60 days a year. You can train all year. It's fun for you and your dog. Why wait until you have something better to do, like duck hunt to finally try to teach your dog something? With proper training, your dogs first duck hunt should be old school to him, and he becomes an assett out of the gate, instead of 3 or 4 years later.
Trained dogs and hunting dogs? Why should their be a difference? Sure everyone doesn't have to have a full tilt boogey dog, but shouldn't everyone have an obedient willing retreiver? Did anyone on here buy their dog with the thought of having anything else? Nobody on here bought their dog with the ideal it'd have problems, and regardless of plans for their dogs, nobody on here should have to hunt with a problem dog. I bought into that mentailty once, and had a big fat yeller dog that was a pain in the ass to take around because of it. Sure she got my ducks, a $#!+ load of them, but it was often ugly, and always smelly. She wasn't born a whining disobedient mess, I made her that way. And most of her sure nuff training was on the job... Not a way to make a duck dog in my opinion now that I've had both. travis
Read the orignal post... A 3 year old dog, with mouth problems, and now won't go because of an ill timed correction. What's the hurry to fix this problem for a while, or teach it where it will never come up again? What's more fair to the dog, a gimmick or teaching it?
Just because someone doesn't agree with a statement, doesn't mean they don't agree with you. Maybe your new to here, maybe the net, I don't know, but this median doesn't always translate well. I assure you, I meant nothing but to educate, not to degrade. And btw, I do happen to know everything, so it's a real drag living in an unperfect world... hehe.
FF is more than a dog picking up something at your feet. Dogs don't think like people, or work like people. A dog wants to please you (well, most do) but the want to please you will not overcome their own will, just like that scooby snackto sit when a better offer comes along won't. There will be a time a dog decides he's working (or not working) on his own. Hunt one enough, train one enough, be around dogs, and you will see this. All the desire in the world to go get a bird has nothing to do with a dog that suddenly decides he doesn't want to go get a bird for whatever reason. All of a sudden, his will overcomes his desire. It might be an illtimed correction like the orignal poster made, or it might be cold water, or it might be any number of things... What do you do to a nonforced dog? Nothing. You might correct him, but he doesn't know why. You might beg or plead him, maybe even happy him up a little and maybe get him going again, only to have the problem again and recur time after time. Progress stops when you regress. You have no way to make that dog go, and that has nothing driving him but his own will, and a dog's will isn't always the same as yours. FF, not only gives you complete control of a dogs mouth, it also makes fetch an enforced command. It makes go just as enforceable as stop or come. It makes the very ideal of forcing a dog to go almost not there, because once a dog understands (theirs that word again) he has an obligation to go, just like he has an obligation to follow every command given, he doesn't think not going is an option. He won't give up on a marked bird that he can't find, because when you sent him, he knew it was his job to get that bird. His job... not just his will. His will adds to that obligation, and without both you won't get very far. You can't do much with just a dogs will, nor with just obligation, but the both of them together are amazaing.
So know you got a dog that UNDERSTANDS his part of this. He UNDERSTANDS what HOLD means, what FETCH means, and he understands the corrections if he chooses to not obey. These problems, and set backs, don't happen to a dog that UNDERSTANDS. They happen to a dog that someone (and usually on accident or by not knowing) got the desired responce and thought their dog knows it. A dog that truely understands something, understands it anytime they see it. How many of these threads say, my dog sits in the yard fine, but if there are other dogs there, he won't sit? Do you think that dog understands sit? Or is simply sitting when its his will? What about the dog that breaks hunting, but wont in the yard? Because he sits when its convient to him, when his will overcomes a condtioned responce to sit, he breaks. If he truely understood sit, he'd sit. All the time, everytime. If he truely understood hold, he'd hold all the time, everytime. If he truely understands fetch, he will always go, and always pick up whatever directed too. All the time, everytime.
The orginal poster said he dog mouthed birds, got corrected, and then wouldn't go. If the dog was force fetched, the dog could have been corrected for the mouthing, and if he no go'd it could have been dealt with immedately, before it became a big deal. Right there on the spot, dog would be made to go, and after that, he'd go. Just like he was before. Instead, this dog got a correction he didn't understand, and now wont go. And the more times he doesn't go, the tougher it is to get him to go.
Anything you take the time to make things black and white for a dog he can understand, and he can understand it quite quickly. There are a lot of times other ways to do things to a dog, but to me at least, nothing is as fair as making a dog understand it. When a dog understands it, he's making the right choices and learning through sucess, instead of fear or worry. Dog's don't work well when they are scared.
My final gem of knowledge on force fetch and the thought that dogs have fetch bred into them, therefore ff doesn't make sense... is that every dog, no matter the breeding, sits on his own. Since it's real nice to be able to have them sit when we want them too, we teach them sit as an enforceable command. Fetching is as important as sitting, so only makes sense you'd want control over that now doesn't it?
Best training is a duck hole? Naw. Duck season is 60 days a year. You can train all year. It's fun for you and your dog. Why wait until you have something better to do, like duck hunt to finally try to teach your dog something? With proper training, your dogs first duck hunt should be old school to him, and he becomes an assett out of the gate, instead of 3 or 4 years later.
Trained dogs and hunting dogs? Why should their be a difference? Sure everyone doesn't have to have a full tilt boogey dog, but shouldn't everyone have an obedient willing retreiver? Did anyone on here buy their dog with the thought of having anything else? Nobody on here bought their dog with the ideal it'd have problems, and regardless of plans for their dogs, nobody on here should have to hunt with a problem dog. I bought into that mentailty once, and had a big fat yeller dog that was a pain in the ass to take around because of it. Sure she got my ducks, a $#!+ load of them, but it was often ugly, and always smelly. She wasn't born a whining disobedient mess, I made her that way. And most of her sure nuff training was on the job... Not a way to make a duck dog in my opinion now that I've had both. travis
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I could not agree more. The first thing a new lab owner needs to decide is what they truly "need" from the dog. 9 times out of 10 it will be that they need/want friend.
There are few people out side of the training/breeding business that need a dog to work 100% of the time.
As far as the hard mouth, the hell with buying a harness, my grandfather used to wrap a stick with barbed wire and use it to play fetch with. It only took a very short time to break and then he threw the dang thing away.
As far as him dropping the bird in the field, blame your self and learn from your mistakes. To correct the problem, start back at square one in the back yard and make it fun again to reassure your dog of what it is that you expect of him.
Good Luck.
I could not agree more. The first thing a new lab owner needs to decide is what they truly "need" from the dog. 9 times out of 10 it will be that they need/want friend.
There are few people out side of the training/breeding business that need a dog to work 100% of the time.
As far as the hard mouth, the hell with buying a harness, my grandfather used to wrap a stick with barbed wire and use it to play fetch with. It only took a very short time to break and then he threw the dang thing away.
As far as him dropping the bird in the field, blame your self and learn from your mistakes. To correct the problem, start back at square one in the back yard and make it fun again to reassure your dog of what it is that you expect of him.
Good Luck.
Conservation is number one to all true outdoorsmen
Trey Edwards
UH HRCH Nashs' Legend MH RIP 8/11/02- 10/12/12
The yet to be named Chocolate Dawg
Trey Edwards
UH HRCH Nashs' Legend MH RIP 8/11/02- 10/12/12
The yet to be named Chocolate Dawg
barb'd wire?
Barb'd wire? are you freaking nuts, dude? Yeah, that sounds like a winner.... dog fetches, sticks tip into roof of his mouth, and not your at the vet with a root-canal dog.
Good gosh dam....no offense fella, but thats some ignorant $#!+.
Good gosh dam....no offense fella, but thats some ignorant $#!+.
I'm not a pro trainer by any mean's but i agree with some of these post ff is a must a command is just that and your dog must take it no if's and's or but's about.I had 1 of my dog's that know's better refuse a cast in training one day picked that bitch up by the scruff of the neck threw her in with some kind word's she got the message quick,but dog's like people have off day's.As far as the stick deal that aint real bright I'v been told by trainer's throw duck's or bumper's no stick's ,can's,pinecone's or other crap,reason send your dog on a blind hard time finding bird dog use to stick being thrown can't find duck run's up on stick or other stuff bring's it back to blind dog think's it did good your pissed,can't punish dog because you taught it that move.I have heard of useing round stiff brissel hair brush for hard mouth.
Whew I did not mean to open this can of worms. I am a Pro, and I do train for a living. FF is the foundation that all the dogs I train is based upon. This does not mean that it is the ONLY wat to train a dog. Many dogs a very, very possive of bumpers, birds, etc and will hold until delivery. they can be taught to pick up bumpers etc. with a fetch command with-out pressure. This type of dog is usually very bright and has a HIGH PREY INSTINCT and they are retrieving for themseleves, you just happen to be the guy that they love and understand if the give it to you you will get them something elese.
For advanced level work, long blind retrieves, honoring other dogs and working in extreme conditions a dog must understand that there job is t retrieve, not just when they want to but when you demand it. I have hunted with many types of dogs over the years and consistantly there always comes a time when the dog that has not been through FF will let you down. Most dogs can and do perform up to there owners expectation's, after all you trained the dog and should know his capabilities as long as he is kept within his abilities you should be happy. The original post in my opinion if this dog is retrieving on water he will come around to retrieving on land, it will just take patients and time. If not I see no other way than a FF solution.
For advanced level work, long blind retrieves, honoring other dogs and working in extreme conditions a dog must understand that there job is t retrieve, not just when they want to but when you demand it. I have hunted with many types of dogs over the years and consistantly there always comes a time when the dog that has not been through FF will let you down. Most dogs can and do perform up to there owners expectation's, after all you trained the dog and should know his capabilities as long as he is kept within his abilities you should be happy. The original post in my opinion if this dog is retrieving on water he will come around to retrieving on land, it will just take patients and time. If not I see no other way than a FF solution.
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