my comment was not "directed" at anyone and was dead serious
money talks
the doc
Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
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the doctor
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Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
After a careful study of the land, this is what I came up with (for those of you who don't know what the fuss is about). Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
1.The Sunflower River splits in DNF. The Big Sunflower flows easterly and the Little Sunflower flows south.
2.The mouth of the Big Sunflower used to be at Lake George, near Holly Bluff, near where Silver Creek and Panther Creek emptied into Lake George.
3.Lake George is a cutoff of the Yazoo River.
4.A channel was cut about mid-way down lake George to connect the Big Sunflower with the Little Sunflower. The Big Sunflower flows through Lake George.
5.The Whittington Channel cut lake George in half, and empties into the Yazoo where the Big Sunflower used to empty into the Yazoo (the mouth of Lake George). The Whittington Channel takes pressure off of the Yazoo about 11 river miles south of Belzoni. Yazoo overflow that used to drain through Silver Creek down to Holly Bluff (into Lake George), and through several lakes into Panther Creek (into Lake George) now flows through this straight channel with levees on both sides.
6.The Whittington channel levees prevent the Big Sunflower from exiting Lake George at the original mouth.
7.The Big Sunflower now meets the Little Sunflower in the south end of DNF and they empty into the Yazoo a few miles south of the Lake George mouth at the original mouth of the Little Sunflower. (The mouth of the Big Sunflower was just moved a few miles south of its original mouth)
8.There is a flood gate at this point where the combined Little and Big Sunflower rivers enter the Yazoo. A new channel (with a levee) was also dug at this point and parallels the Yazoo River along the hill line. This will allow the gate to be shut and the Sunflower River won't dump into the Yazoo here, but will flow through the new channel southward.
9.This new “Sunflower River” channel enters Steele Bayou at the Yazoo River just north of Vicksburg and there is another flood gate here.
10.Steele Bayou drains the western Delta from Yazoo Refuge and also takes the runoff from Deer Creek (which drains the western Delta from Greenville area).
11.The Yazoo then empties into the Mississippi a couple of miles further south. When the MS River rises, the gates are closed to prevent the MS from backing up into the Sunflower and Steele Bayou. But it can still back up into the Yazoo, which is sandwiched between the natural hill line and the man-made levee that separates the Sunflower from the Yazoo. When the gates are closed, however, the Sunflower River and Steele Bayou back up into the surrounding land with no way to escape. A pump would dump all of this water (pretty much everything from Coahoma County southward that doesn’t drain through the Coldwater, Tallahatchie and Yazoo Rivers) into the MS River and would prevent the pooling of water in most of the South Delta.
12.In essence, the straightening and dredging of the Yazoo, Tallahatchie, Coldwater and all of the channels dug everywhere in between, quickly removes water from the entire Delta. This means that when the gates on Steele Bayou and the Sunflower River are closed, all of the water from Tunica county south speedily makes its way to the south Delta where it sits. Levees in place on most streams to the north prevent floodwater from fanning out across the land, so they quickly move southward and put exponential pressure on the south Delta.
On one hand I sympathize with the south Delta folks, who get flooded with Delta water more quickly now than before all of the dredging, channelization and levees were put in place. They get all of our north and central delta water (and that from the hills that drain through the Big 4 Reservoirs) more quickly now than the way God designed it. To sum it up, a canal dug in Tunica county to get the water off of a farm field more quickly, in effect, quickly puts more water on the south Delta. A levee on the Tallahatchie River to keep the land along the banks from flooding means a higher, faster wall of water making its way down a straightened river to the south Delta. To do all of the other projects and not install the pump is like spending 75 years restoring a classic car only to not put a water pump on the motor.
But on the other hand, when the MS River is high enough to force the closing of the flood gates, the south Delta doesn't flood nearly as much as it would if the gates were not in place and the MS River would quickly spread out across the south delta. So they still get wet, but not wet from the MS River directly. In a perfect "delta" world, the MS River would rise, the gates would be shut and there would not be a bunch of water from rain in MS causing the Delta rivers to swell. Then the MS River would go down and the gates would open again and the Delta rivers would flow again. But when you get a rising MS River and a rain-soaked Delta, the problems are magnified.
The way it is right now, a pump to suck out the water from the Sunflower and Steele Bayou would complete the process that was begun when the dredging, channeling and levee system was begun so many years ago. A process that I sometimes wish was never begun, but because of it, the Delta is an inhabitable place and not a malaria-infested swamp. I guess the only way to "undo" it all would be to knock down the levees, let the straightened rivers go back to their crooked paths through the hundreds of oxbows and cutoffs that now lie dormant, and let the canal ditches fill up with silt.
Either way, the natural south Delta that flooded at the whim of the MS River and all of the Yazoo basin tributaries or the new south Delta that lies protected behind a wall of levees and flood gates, it still gets wet. A flood is a flood and the animals, trees, people and land are going to suffer regardless. It's called a "flood plain" for a reason. If you choose to live in it (as I do), be prepared to face reality and accept the consequences of nature's natural process. If my house floods tomorrow because a levee breaks or we get 8 inches of rain overnight, I'm not going to find anyone to blame other than myself. (I read the article in the paper today about Vicksburg residents upset with the police because they hadn't come by to bring them snacks and check on them like they did back in 1973). If I wanted to guarantee myself I wouldn't get wet, I'd move to Arizona.
A vicious cycle, no doubt.
1.The Sunflower River splits in DNF. The Big Sunflower flows easterly and the Little Sunflower flows south.
2.The mouth of the Big Sunflower used to be at Lake George, near Holly Bluff, near where Silver Creek and Panther Creek emptied into Lake George.
3.Lake George is a cutoff of the Yazoo River.
4.A channel was cut about mid-way down lake George to connect the Big Sunflower with the Little Sunflower. The Big Sunflower flows through Lake George.
5.The Whittington Channel cut lake George in half, and empties into the Yazoo where the Big Sunflower used to empty into the Yazoo (the mouth of Lake George). The Whittington Channel takes pressure off of the Yazoo about 11 river miles south of Belzoni. Yazoo overflow that used to drain through Silver Creek down to Holly Bluff (into Lake George), and through several lakes into Panther Creek (into Lake George) now flows through this straight channel with levees on both sides.
6.The Whittington channel levees prevent the Big Sunflower from exiting Lake George at the original mouth.
7.The Big Sunflower now meets the Little Sunflower in the south end of DNF and they empty into the Yazoo a few miles south of the Lake George mouth at the original mouth of the Little Sunflower. (The mouth of the Big Sunflower was just moved a few miles south of its original mouth)
8.There is a flood gate at this point where the combined Little and Big Sunflower rivers enter the Yazoo. A new channel (with a levee) was also dug at this point and parallels the Yazoo River along the hill line. This will allow the gate to be shut and the Sunflower River won't dump into the Yazoo here, but will flow through the new channel southward.
9.This new “Sunflower River” channel enters Steele Bayou at the Yazoo River just north of Vicksburg and there is another flood gate here.
10.Steele Bayou drains the western Delta from Yazoo Refuge and also takes the runoff from Deer Creek (which drains the western Delta from Greenville area).
11.The Yazoo then empties into the Mississippi a couple of miles further south. When the MS River rises, the gates are closed to prevent the MS from backing up into the Sunflower and Steele Bayou. But it can still back up into the Yazoo, which is sandwiched between the natural hill line and the man-made levee that separates the Sunflower from the Yazoo. When the gates are closed, however, the Sunflower River and Steele Bayou back up into the surrounding land with no way to escape. A pump would dump all of this water (pretty much everything from Coahoma County southward that doesn’t drain through the Coldwater, Tallahatchie and Yazoo Rivers) into the MS River and would prevent the pooling of water in most of the South Delta.
12.In essence, the straightening and dredging of the Yazoo, Tallahatchie, Coldwater and all of the channels dug everywhere in between, quickly removes water from the entire Delta. This means that when the gates on Steele Bayou and the Sunflower River are closed, all of the water from Tunica county south speedily makes its way to the south Delta where it sits. Levees in place on most streams to the north prevent floodwater from fanning out across the land, so they quickly move southward and put exponential pressure on the south Delta.
On one hand I sympathize with the south Delta folks, who get flooded with Delta water more quickly now than before all of the dredging, channelization and levees were put in place. They get all of our north and central delta water (and that from the hills that drain through the Big 4 Reservoirs) more quickly now than the way God designed it. To sum it up, a canal dug in Tunica county to get the water off of a farm field more quickly, in effect, quickly puts more water on the south Delta. A levee on the Tallahatchie River to keep the land along the banks from flooding means a higher, faster wall of water making its way down a straightened river to the south Delta. To do all of the other projects and not install the pump is like spending 75 years restoring a classic car only to not put a water pump on the motor.
But on the other hand, when the MS River is high enough to force the closing of the flood gates, the south Delta doesn't flood nearly as much as it would if the gates were not in place and the MS River would quickly spread out across the south delta. So they still get wet, but not wet from the MS River directly. In a perfect "delta" world, the MS River would rise, the gates would be shut and there would not be a bunch of water from rain in MS causing the Delta rivers to swell. Then the MS River would go down and the gates would open again and the Delta rivers would flow again. But when you get a rising MS River and a rain-soaked Delta, the problems are magnified.
The way it is right now, a pump to suck out the water from the Sunflower and Steele Bayou would complete the process that was begun when the dredging, channeling and levee system was begun so many years ago. A process that I sometimes wish was never begun, but because of it, the Delta is an inhabitable place and not a malaria-infested swamp. I guess the only way to "undo" it all would be to knock down the levees, let the straightened rivers go back to their crooked paths through the hundreds of oxbows and cutoffs that now lie dormant, and let the canal ditches fill up with silt.
Either way, the natural south Delta that flooded at the whim of the MS River and all of the Yazoo basin tributaries or the new south Delta that lies protected behind a wall of levees and flood gates, it still gets wet. A flood is a flood and the animals, trees, people and land are going to suffer regardless. It's called a "flood plain" for a reason. If you choose to live in it (as I do), be prepared to face reality and accept the consequences of nature's natural process. If my house floods tomorrow because a levee breaks or we get 8 inches of rain overnight, I'm not going to find anyone to blame other than myself. (I read the article in the paper today about Vicksburg residents upset with the police because they hadn't come by to bring them snacks and check on them like they did back in 1973). If I wanted to guarantee myself I wouldn't get wet, I'd move to Arizona.
A vicious cycle, no doubt.
Last edited by Wingman on Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
ISAIAH 40:31
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Thanks for the info Rob. That is the kind of info I was looking for.
There will be a day....
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Kinda like making a funnel out of the delta, huh? Put a lot of water in it and it has no where to go because someone wanted all of it to go down to one place.
Wait, that gives me an idea! I'm going to build a funnel that has a pump in the bottom of it for the folks who can't wait for the water to drain out with gravity. You know, kinda like a microwave fireplace where you can sit by the fire all night long in two minutes!
I know little of that makes sense. Kinda like all this mess with the Yazoo Pumps project. It only makes sense if you are in the funnel!
crow
Wait, that gives me an idea! I'm going to build a funnel that has a pump in the bottom of it for the folks who can't wait for the water to drain out with gravity. You know, kinda like a microwave fireplace where you can sit by the fire all night long in two minutes!
I know little of that makes sense. Kinda like all this mess with the Yazoo Pumps project. It only makes sense if you are in the funnel!
crow
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Rob's post was a good one. I really don't see why it is so hard to understand why the pumps would be a good thing. I have heard many people talk of the concern of the wildlife that it would affect, but with all of the backwater that is there now, you can't tell me that they are not displaced with the situation we are currently in.
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Somebody needs to put together a map like Wingman's, but showing areas currently under water that are generally not under water. Any takers or any already done?
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Wildfowler
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Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Bercy wrote:Somebody needs to put together a map like Wingman's, but showing areas currently under water that are generally not under water. Any takers or any already done?
DISCLAIMER: I am not insensitive to the suffering of anyone being affected by the flood. I'm trying to understand what's really happening.
I would like to see a map or have someone who really know, tell us approximately how many acres of productive ag land that lies within the "protected area" in the Steele bayou flood control lands actually has water on it right now.
When I drove across to DNF this past weekend, I was stunned at the amount of flooding that was occurring in the yazoo/ms "non-protected" area. I traveled through a portion of DNF, and yes it was flooded. Not totally. At least 75% flooded, maybe more. I really didn't notice a significant amount of flooding outside of DNF. I will concede that my travels were limited and I probably missed seeing it.
I know there is flooding occurring in the lands directly north of the steel bayou structure. I suspect there is an amount of flooding in the Steele Bayou area that is similar to what's happening in DNF. I couldn't drive that far west, so I couldn't see it for myself.
I would be skeptical of any reports of mass drowning of the deer population within DNF based on what I saw. I would like to admit that I don't know the facts underlying deer behavior in these event. I could be proven wrong by the facts. The terrain elevation appears to gradually increase as you drive north in the property. It's not like there is one high ridge running through the middle of the forest that's currently surrounded by endless miles of 10 foot deep water. I'm sure that a lot of deer just get gradually pushed out. A lot of what I saw could be walked comfortably with hip boots. I'm sure the further south in DNF, and in other parts of the complex, the water depth may be and is much deeper.
I am going to speculate that DNF was never cleared because it's elevation is such that it floods more frequently that what's happening outside of the protected area right now. If the control structure was never built, and the river were backed up to the current elevation of nearly 91 feet, virtually all of the forest would have water at that level. 91 feet would probably happen on it's own a few times per decade if the structure were not there to protect it.
I'm also speculating that the lands that are cleared and in ag production, were originally cleared because they are higher than the 91 feet, and it was relatively safe to do so. Maybe even a few feet higher than the 91 feet. I really don't have anyway to know this for certain, just a guess. (educated?)
I think I am concluding this because there is approximately 10 feet of elevation difference between the amount of flooding in protected area and the non-protected area. If the structure had never been built, and the current amount of flooding that we were experiencing was at the "nearly" 91 feet like it is now in the protected area, wouldn't we be looking at MS river level of approximately 10 feet lower than it is right now? I tried to understand how this correlation worked several weeks ago. I'm not sure I fully understood it then, which is why I'm bringing it up again. I can recognize that the coorelation may not be exactly the differnce that is being recored on both sides of the structure right now, but it's probably close. The river goes to 40 feet a few times per decade. It was probably not advisable to try to farm at such elevations prior to the construction of the steel bayou structure. I'm assuming that the lands were cleared well prior to 1940 (or whenever this project was begun) Maybe I'm wrong about the timing of the land clearing.
It seems to me that the biggest problem we have right now is in the non-protected area. Shouldn't something be done about this?
Just trying to understand....
driven every kind of rig that's ever been made, driven the backroads so I wouldn't get weighed. - Lowell George
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
Did anyone go to the meeting? How did it go?
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
I was not there, but talked to some folks that were. Heard it was the same old jargon back and forth. They should have been able to look out of their windows on the ride to Vicksburg and see why the pumps are needed. However, most that were against it, probably were not coming from the Delta.
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
mille011 wrote: However, most that were against it, probably were not coming from the Delta.
exactly
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deltadukman
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Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
lowbar wrote:mille011 wrote: However, most that were against it, probably were not coming from the Delta.
exactly
Coming from two people who are claiming both The Delta, and the Jackson Metro area. Which one are ya from?
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
I went and thought it was a good meeting. The EPA presented their beliefs in a short summary. They then let the Corps present a report. The corps came with 20 years worth of facts and actual studies (not beliefs). The corps put one hell of a dog and pony show in my opinion that should have answered everyones concerns. (if they had any concerns about the pump).
Next the elected officials got to speak, folks from Sen. Cochran, Gov. Barbours office and many others were there (Mike Chaney) board of sup. and mayor and aldermen from Vicksburg, Iss. county, Washington Co., Sharkey Co., and several other areas. Not ONE opposed the pumps. One official asked everyone in the room who supported the pumps to please stand up. I would say that was 95% of the room.
Next came time for the public to speak. The EPA made you fill out a card if you wanted to speak and gave you a 3 min. time frame. For some reason or another the EPA seemed to have members of the National Wildlife Federation and Audobon society mainly go first. These individuals were going way over their time limit and the fellows woudn't make them stop. Two of them went close to 10 min. I sat there till 10:00 pm b/c I wanted to speak. Most of the public that wanted to speak for the pumps weren't able to b/c the environmentalist took so long. From my observation 99% of the people opposed to the pumps had no direct connection with the south delta. The were folks from NO and Baton Rouge taken up time talking about levees failing in NO and the Corps is a bunch a lying hipocrits. Most of the folks from MS that opposed the pumps seemed to be from MADISON. Now does that surprise you
.
The thing I hated most was coming down the stairs and looking at a picture of a female bear and her cubs in a tree. I hope that isn't my bear but I know it was probablly her. I dont know if B. Young has tracked her this past week but I bet he has, I hope the little cubs make it but I know its gonna be tough on them as well as most of the other wildlife in the area.
I recieved an email this week from the Ms Wildlife federation to oppose the pumps. This is a group I have always respected in the past. I know believe they are controlled by their liberal mother organization the National Wildlife Federation and I must say I will not support them any longer.
Next the elected officials got to speak, folks from Sen. Cochran, Gov. Barbours office and many others were there (Mike Chaney) board of sup. and mayor and aldermen from Vicksburg, Iss. county, Washington Co., Sharkey Co., and several other areas. Not ONE opposed the pumps. One official asked everyone in the room who supported the pumps to please stand up. I would say that was 95% of the room.
Next came time for the public to speak. The EPA made you fill out a card if you wanted to speak and gave you a 3 min. time frame. For some reason or another the EPA seemed to have members of the National Wildlife Federation and Audobon society mainly go first. These individuals were going way over their time limit and the fellows woudn't make them stop. Two of them went close to 10 min. I sat there till 10:00 pm b/c I wanted to speak. Most of the public that wanted to speak for the pumps weren't able to b/c the environmentalist took so long. From my observation 99% of the people opposed to the pumps had no direct connection with the south delta. The were folks from NO and Baton Rouge taken up time talking about levees failing in NO and the Corps is a bunch a lying hipocrits. Most of the folks from MS that opposed the pumps seemed to be from MADISON. Now does that surprise you
.The thing I hated most was coming down the stairs and looking at a picture of a female bear and her cubs in a tree. I hope that isn't my bear but I know it was probablly her. I dont know if B. Young has tracked her this past week but I bet he has, I hope the little cubs make it but I know its gonna be tough on them as well as most of the other wildlife in the area.
I recieved an email this week from the Ms Wildlife federation to oppose the pumps. This is a group I have always respected in the past. I know believe they are controlled by their liberal mother organization the National Wildlife Federation and I must say I will not support them any longer.
Peewee
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
If it was the same pic of the 3 bears in a tree with water under them that I saw, it was taken near the south Bolivar Co. line. If the female had an orange collar, she swam the river from Arkansas.
ISAIAH 40:31
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt
Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
deltadukman wrote:lowbar wrote:mille011 wrote: However, most that were against it, probably were not coming from the Delta.
exactly
Coming from two people who are claiming both The Delta, and the Jackson Metro area. Which one are ya from?
I'm from Anguilla and still call it home. I am just living in Brandon until I can get back there one day.
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the doctor
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Re: Yazoo Pump Hearing (Public) ** Reminder **
good post peewee, although I dont understand the part about people from Madison?
why do people from Madison oppose the pumps? not really for or agin it just wondering what I was missing?
the doc
why do people from Madison oppose the pumps? not really for or agin it just wondering what I was missing?
the doc
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