Levee Board's lawsuit to proceed with Pump dismissed

[sunnylab]

he obviously doesn't understand how the steele bayou structure works.

[farmerc83]

The natural drainage system is superior to that created by man. The natural sumps (wetlands) help to filter the water and improve water quality. The man-assisted drainage that has taken place over the years, in many forms, has destroyed and diminished these natural sumps/wetlands and allowed more silt and other impurities to go downstream than otherwise. This has had the result of damaging large portions of the Gulf of Mexico near the mouth of the MS River and well beyond. Its often referred to as the law of unintended consequences.

Isn't the reason for the Gulf reclaiming wetlands in south LA that the river no longer picks up as much silt and sediment as it did when it was allowed to flood the Delta as nature intended before the levees? Also, thought the "dead zone" in the Gulf around the mouth of the river was due to fertilizers, pesticides and pollutants coming down it for all these years. Sure there are different theories out there, but I've never heard that the levee and structure system allow too much silt to go downstream.

[Wingman]

The natural drainage system is superior to that created by man. The natural sumps (wetlands) help to filter the water and improve water quality. The man-assisted drainage that has taken place over the years, in many forms, has destroyed and diminished these natural sumps/wetlands and allowed more silt and other impurities to go downstream than otherwise. This has had the result of damaging large portions of the Gulf of Mexico near the mouth of the MS River and well beyond. Its often referred to as the law of unintended consequences.

Isn't the reason for the Gulf reclaiming wetlands in south LA that the river no longer picks up as much silt and sediment as it did when it was allowed to flood the Delta as nature intended before the levees? Also, thought the "dead zone" in the Gulf around the mouth of the river was due to fertilizers, pesticides and pollutants coming down it for all these years. Sure there are different theories out there, but I've never heard that the levee and structure system allow too much silt to go downstream.

It dumps it all straight off the end of the shelf, not in the marsh like it did before the levees. Therefore, saltwater intrusion is killing the marsh vegetation that used to be fed by silt and freshwater from the MS River.

Making the MS River a big, "straight" ditch has caused it to shoot all sediments straight down the river, instead of branching out into places like the Atchafalaya, etc. It is thought that places like Deer Creek/ Steele Bayou were once MS River distributaries. When the river got up to flood stage, water flowed down them and back to the river. That's why you see such fine cotton ground on that high, natural levee along Deer Creek. Silt deposits from floods. Same way with Silver Creek off of the Yazoo. Now blocked off by the levee system.

I am glad I live in the Delta. I could not live where I live if it weren't for flood control. However, I like to see what is still in its natural state stay that way. I am not allowed to comment on the Pumps project.

If you've never read Rising Tide, you should. Rather boring at times but very informative.

[peewee]

There may be a good argument that this situation shows some version of checks and balances with our system, but to me this shows an extreme amount of govt infighting, wasteful spending, and tying up our court system for nothing when everyone should have been on the same page to begin with. How did the COE ever even break ground on the Steele Bayou structure if the EPA had problems with half of the proposed plan? Is it wrong to think they may be wasting more time and money on this than any plan that is proposed now could ever make up for?

When the project was designed there was no agency called the EPA, the EPA was not created until 1970.

[novacaine]

There may be a good argument that this situation shows some version of checks and balances with our system, but to me this shows an extreme amount of govt infighting, wasteful spending, and tying up our court system for nothing when everyone should have been on the same page to begin with. How did the COE ever even break ground on the Steele Bayou structure if the EPA had problems with half of the proposed plan? Is it wrong to think they may be wasting more time and money on this than any plan that is proposed now could ever make up for?

When the project was designed there was no agency called the EPA, the EPA was not created until 1970.

Ding,ding,ding.........correct sir! Read the judgement, it spells out the time line. It all started as a result of the original 1928 Flood Control Act, the followed up by 1935,etc.etc. What happened in 1927 and again in the 1930's?

[TODO]

This thing was approved when, the 1940's? How come it never got built in that era? Or the 50's and 60's?

[novacaine]

This thing was approved when, the 1940's? How come it never got built in that era? Or the 50's and 60's?

Funding, politics.......the phase of the moon?

The structure was in i think late 60's but the backwater levee wasn't completed when the 73 event hit.

[MMallard]

go to rivergages.com and watch the steele bayou levels. Everytime you see riverside higher than land side the structure is closed reducing backwater flooding. If the land side is higher than the river side they open it up reducing flood levels. The only time the pumps would have functioned is when the level on the river side was higher and the land side was above 87ft. The pumps would have decreased duration of floods not max levels, so how can you say all the wetlands would have been "drained"....... Duration is what kills crops and strands terrestrial animals

[Po Monkey Lounger]

"So, were building the levees a mistake?"

Actually, that is a good question. I think that in many ways, it was indeed a mistake. The rich farm land of the MS Delta was created when there were no levees. There is no doubt that today's farmland in the MS Delta would be much richer and of higher quality IF the levees had not been built ---granted there may be fewer farmable acres due to seasonal flooding. But, the recreational value of those unfarmable, seasonally flooded areas (if the levees had not been built) would today be astronomical --- off the charts. Think of how premium the hunting is on the River side of the levees. And then imagine much more of that type of natural river bottom area.

But, we can't go back in time. Unfortunatly, what is done is done. Even if it was affordable to physically "remove the levees", there has been too much development along the River since the levees were built, that is now dependent upon the levees for protection. But, one day, perhaps not in my lifetime, the MS River will reclaim what was once hers. While I don't wish this to happen, I believe that it will happen due to the laws of probability. For instance, there will eventually be future earthquakes along the New Madrid fault line --- likely of a magnatude to significantly alter the course of the MS River once again, destroying levees in the process. It will be a hell of an event when it eventually happens. But, history will likely repeat itself. It is the folly of man to think otherwise. And when it does, there will be those who will blame this, and blame that, as if man could have built something to withstand such an occurence ---but, the reality will be that there was nothing that could be done to prevent it. And afterward, instead of questioning the wisdom of land use decisions along the MS River, there will be those demanding that the River be "tamed" once again. And the cycle will repeat itself.

[peewee]

go to rivergages.com and watch the steele bayou levels. Everytime you see riverside higher than land side the structure is closed reducing backwater flooding. If the land side is higher than the river side they open it up reducing flood levels. The only time the pumps would have functioned is when the level on the river side was higher and the land side was above 87ft. The pumps would have decreased duration of floods not max levels, so how can you say all the wetlands would have been "drained"....... Duration is what kills crops and strands terrestrial animals

B/c people that don't know many times follow people who DON'T know (ie special interest)

And afterward, instead of questioning the wisdom of land use decisions along the MS River, there will be those demanding that the River be "tamed" once again. And the cycle will repeat itself.

Why stop with the MS river, why not lets look at the damage in all basins, do folks realize what a good portion of Jackson was at one time. No most don't.

[Bully]

Does this flood change anyone's opinion on the pump issue?

[Cotten]

Does this flood change anyone's opinion on the pump issue?

This flood further validates and strengthens the argument against the pumps. Po Monkey is dead on and did a fine job making his points in a tactful manner.


The blunt version is government screws up just about everything it gets involved with and politics is always a factor. Why else would anybody with a 70 IQ or higher want to rebuild the 9th Ward in New Orleans? It damned sure isn’t because it’s the smart thing to do. An elementary school child can figure out what happened with Katrina would have been a fun time party compared to what will happen when a direct hit occurs.

In addition to Po Monkey I agree with Wingman; and like Po Monk, it’s not very often I’m on the side of the EPA.

[southdeltan]

Where exactly would they pump the water? The waters of the MS/Yazoo are going to backup over the top of the levee as it is - why add more water to it? Pumps would not help in any way in this type of flood.

They said they designed the levee to over top which is interesting considering the Bird's Point Floodway was designed to over top specifically to erode the levee. After it didn't work as designed they redesigned it to use explosives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird%27s_P ... _Flood-way

http://www.mvm.usace.army.mil/publicaff ... _paper.pdf

I'd provide more info, but stories about blowing the levee have made searching difficult.

If the top of the Steele Bayou structure is 112 above sea level, it makes little sense for the top of the levee to be below that. Zero Gauge on the MS Bridge at Vicksburg is 46.23 above sea level. They say at 57.5 (MS River on the Vicksburg Gauge) the elevation will be 103.73. The reason it will crest at 107 is due to headwaters of the Yazoo. That's approximately 3 feet difference. They said if the levees had held in 1927 the river would have been 62 feet gauge. 62 + 46.23 = 108.23. Add 4 feet to account for Yazoo headwaters and you'd have 112 feet above sea level. It is very interesting that the structure was built to this height but I have no idea why they didn't build the rest of the levee to 112.

Also, pumping water over seems like it'd have the opposite effect of opening Muddy Bayou Structure to raise Eagle Lake to add more water pressing against the levee to equalize pressure and keep it from blowing out. Of course the strength of the levee doesn't matter if it's going to over top.

I'm waiting on the reason the levee was built to this height. First I've ever heard of this but I'm sure it's logical...

[southdeltan]

I'm waiting on the reason the levee was built to this height. First I've ever heard of this but I'm sure it's logical...

But all the levees along the river are expected to hold, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman Kavanaugh Breazeale said Friday.

"The levees are doing what they're designed to do and things are working well," Breazeale said. "We do have a backwater levee north of Vicksburg that is designed to have water come over that, which will happen if water gets to predicted levels. That will help to relieve pressure."

from: http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20 ... |text|Home

Hrm - never heard that before now. Interesting - they don't seem confident it'll hold, even though they keep saying it will. Was geocloth invented when they designed that levee?

[stang67]

It's true. The Yazoo Backwater levee was intentionally constructed with a lower section called the "overtopping" section (107ft).