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Deltamud77 wrote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

To overcome the liberal agenda and arguments, however, you must be able to define the meaning of arms. When the amendment was written, it meant muskets in all likelihood, not HK416s and the like. If you extrapolate out, what does this all mean? Should a citizen be able to own, without license, a fully automatic weapon...since the military has them?

Should a citizen be able to own stinger missiles or RPGs? What about an F-18 with armament capability?

We all know that the 2nd Amendment is not designed to protect hunting rights, but instead to protect the people from the government as well as from each other.

Where should the line be drawn and what was the original intent and should we evolve past the original intent based on modern technology could not have been contemplated when the 2nd Amendment was instituted? These are the tough arguments that pro-gun advocates must contemplate and be able to defend. Frankly, if we are being honest, they are really good questions and I am not sure there are really good answers.

The best answer resides in the premise that the "horse is out of the barn". There are too many guns and too many bad guys that would not obey the laws so the populous, at the very least, should be able to continue as it is currently, unimpeded. It is similar to the nuclear disarmament discussion between the US and Russia..."you give up yours first". However, in a way, this argument does not address constitutional intent, or even whether it is relevant on the issue anymore.

The short answer to your question, I believe, is that 'yes'. A citizen should be able to "own, without license, a fully automatic weapon". When the constitution was written and ratified, the technology of the day was cap and ball musket. In the early 80's (if I remember correctly), the people of the Philipinnes(sp) overthrew their government and formed a democracy using the technology of the day, AK47s, tanks, M-16s, etc.

The long answer is that something needs to be done. Just because the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, does not mean that everyone is capable of the responsibility of bearing arms. We justifiably forbit convicted felons from ever owning firearms, even after they serve their sentence. We do not allow children to purchase firearms for safety reasons. And nobody believes that the mentally ill should be allowed to own firearms for those same safety reasons. Yet, there is currently no provision - anywhere - to prevent the mentally ill from doing that very thing.

The fix is remarkably simple. In the same background check for crimminal history, there can just as easily be a check for history of Mental Disease or Defect. Lets face it, if a bank can check your pay history with other businesses, and one pharmacy can check your prescription with other pharmacy's and doctors, then the sheriff should be able to check medical records for mental illness.

My $0.02

Patient privacy act will not allow a gun store to check your medical records. A mental evaluation would need to be put into place that can be referenced by gun shops. Maybe a re-evaluation after XX years. Now we all know the 2nd amendment was written without today's weapon technology in mind but it also never mentions citizens being limited to muskets of yesteryear. A weapon is not mention in the amendment. It was written for US to be able to maintain our way of life free from a tyrannical government.

Heck you can take a single shot 12ga or a pump 12ga with buckshot, shoot into a crowd and see what happens. The only thing that will stop things like this is to have teachers and principals that are conceal carry and properly trained for situations that put them or the children in danger, whether it be a shooter or someone with a knife, etc.

1010 wrote: Allow armed teachers with proper training,

The problem with this is that most people who become elementary school teachers are not gun people. They would not wish to work in an environment with guns being stored in their presence for use in an emergency.

If this were the solution, more people like you would have to choose elementary school teaching as a profession.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think this will happen.


My wife just got back from a trip to NY. This was her first time to ever go there. She said that to get into the 911 memorial was just like going through the airport. The was security that each visitor pass through. I suppose this would be a good start. Intensive security at places like schools and shopping malls, hospitals, etc to get in the property.

I don't particularly want my gun rights infringed upon. I enjoy owning and using high capacity ar-15 rifles. I would be much more in favor of a nation registry not unlike the current NFA registry as a solution to an outright ban on certain products. This should include serial numbers and registry of magazines if need be before an outright ban on them.

If such a registry were to become implemented. It would have to be revamped. A 6 month plus waiting period is totally unacceptable now and there's no way it would work for a national assault weapon registry. But it's still better than a total ban in my opinion.

White House "Gun Control Task Force" to be announced at noon today with Biden at the helm.

landscaper wrote:White House "Gun Control Task Force" to be announced at noon today with Biden at the helm.

This will be a disaster.....

Buckwabit wrote:

landscaper wrote:White House "Gun Control Task Force" to be announced at noon today with Biden at the helm.

This will be a disaster.....

Biden is a known anti-gun activist. I believe this is all a dog and pony show though. This task force will make recommendations (most likely predicated on what the anti-gun lobby feeds them) that they will present to the president. These will be presented to Congress with a request to craft a bill. The same anti-gun lobby will draft the language for the bill and it will never pass the House. This is one issue that the Rs can stand to stick their collective feet in the ground on.

I expect waiting periods on the purchase on assault weapons with a suppressor style tax (stamp) and magazine restrictions. That will be the end of it. There will not be a ban on ARs IMO...no way it passes. There is too much money involved.

Deltamud77 wrote:

Buckwabit wrote:

landscaper wrote:White House "Gun Control Task Force" to be announced at noon today with Biden at the helm.

This will be a disaster.....

Biden is a known anti-gun activist. I believe this is all a dog and pony show though. This task force will make recommendations (most likely predicated on what the anti-gun lobby feeds them) that they will present to the president. These will be presented to Congress with a request to craft a bill. The same anti-gun lobby will draft the language for the bill and it will never pass the House. This is one issue that the Rs can stand to stick their collective feet in the ground on.

I expect waiting periods on the purchase on assault weapons with a suppressor style tax (stamp) and magazine restrictions. That will be the end of it. There will not be a ban on ARs IMO...no way it passes. There is too much money involved.

Agreed.

Saw on the news last night that our governor is wanting to cut the state mental healthcare budget by over $3 million. A good example of the importance we place on mental healthcare.

I like the idea of arming teachers. Here in the south we would have no problem finding teachers willing to do this. We need to take a hard look at what Texas is doing.

free78 wrote:Patient privacy act will not allow a gun store to check your medical records.

I am not talking about violating the patient privacy act. We already have laws that allow law enforcement to track chemical precursors, civil judgement levies, etc. This would simply be incorporating these exact same results into the already required background check that is part of any firearm purchase.

Arming teachers is never going to happen. i mean there are alot of stupid teachers out there to begin with.

the problem is not the teachers needing to fend off the crazy people.

The problem is a Facility issue, how do these crazies get in the building to start with.

School facilities should be managed more, fewer ways to enter the school, and control who comes in and out of the facility, as well as monitor the facility via security cameras.

Wildfowler wrote:

1010 wrote: Allow armed teachers with proper training,

The problem with this is that most people who become elementary school teachers are not gun people. They would not wish to work in an environment with guns being stored in their presence for use in an emergency.

If this were the solution, more people like you would have to choose elementary school teaching as a profession.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think this will happen.


My wife just got back from a trip to NY. This was her first time to ever go there. She said that to get into the 911 memorial was just like going through the airport. The was security that each visitor pass through. I suppose this would be a good start. Intensive security at places like schools and shopping malls, hospitals, etc to get in the property.

I don't particularly want my gun rights infringed upon. I enjoy owning and using high capacity ar-15 rifles. I would be much more in favor of a nation registry not unlike the current NFA registry as a solution to an outright ban on certain products. This should include serial numbers and registry of magazines if need be before an outright ban on them.

If such a registry were to become implemented. It would have to be revamped. A 6 month plus waiting period is totally unacceptable now and there's no way it would work for a national assault weapon registry. But it's still better than a total ban in my opinion.

I'm sure they would rather not have some nut in the school with a gun and teachers with nothing but a pencil either.
Most teachers are not CC worthy.
My wife is a teacher she would never CC. And her room is right next to the front door.
A school in TX already has armed ADMIN.

Its a rightway and a wrongway to do anything.. Right now most schools don't even have a metal detector.
The only way I would agree to a teacher CC, is with strict training and guidance.
At school sporting events the SO and the city are there for the entire event. We need somebody during school hours also.

Guns/knives in schools has been an issue for a long time, with the mental problems our people have these days its time to act.
occupational hazards are something we all must deal with..JMO

What do we do now...?

Gun control - most likely avenue the govt will pursue, but ultimately will not solve the problem for all of the reasons previously stated in this thread.

Mental screening/database - too much infrastructure and privacy concerns. Also very difficult to absolutely determine an individuals probability of committing a crime with certainty in most cases.

Increased security - too much infrastructure, cost, and rights infringement. We can't turn entire public domain into a prison.

Judicial solutions (stricter punishment/absolute conviction) - The ACLU and the lawyers would mire this route for decades.

It has already been stated clearly that an individual when sufficiently motivated will find a way to execute their will. Under this premise it is relatively impossible to "control" the problem. We as a society are becoming extremely risk averse. The population feels that our government should protect us from all evils. This mind set is fundamentally contradictory to the ideals of what this country was founded on. We are supposed to take care of ourselves. The general population appears to be shifting away from taking care of themselves and giving those precious freedoms to the government.

What happened in CT is a tragedy, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. One bad apple doesnt ruin the whole barrel in America. Unfortunately this may not be as true as I want it too be.

The LEO previously brought up the discipline side of the argument. This truth is absolutely correct. Not just for gun ownership but for every action we take in life. It relates to personal accountability and responsibility. Two things that are woefully in short supply today. So if personal accountability and responsibility will provide for each individual then how do we get there? No government or community action can provide that to every individual. We need strong families that stay together and take care of each other. This is extremely hard to accomplish on this earth without the key. The key is faith in Jesus Christ. A truly faithful person does not do things like the CT shooting.

^^^So 1010, whats the metal detector going to do when the psycho in combat gear politely refuses to set his AR15 in the coin/key tray?

Maybe this is just a start, but how about retrofitting walls between the hallway and classrooms with bullet proof material, bullet proof doors and a hefty double keyed deadbolt lock that only that room's teacher and the principal have keys to? May not stop him from getting in the building and getting off a couple of shots, but once those doors close his capability to kill diminishes drastically. Another positive is less concern about richocets when SWAT goes in.

farmerc83 wrote:^^^So 1010, whats the metal detector going to do when the psycho in combat gear politely refuses to set his AR15 in the coin/key tray?

Maybe this is just a start, but how about retrofitting walls between the hallway and classrooms with bullet proof material, bullet proof doors and a hefty double keyed deadbolt lock that only that room's teacher and the principal have keys to? May not stop him from getting in the building and getting off a couple of shots, but once those doors close his capability to kill diminishes drastically. Another positive is less concern about richocets when SWAT goes in.

You are correct, it won't keep the bad guy out, it would only be a deterrent to some people.
BTW this is not something ground breaking here.
There is an excellent article on all this at PoliceOne.com, covering a hard-hitting presentation by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman. Here's a particularly compelling excerpt from the article:

The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.

"Come with me to the library at Columbine High School," Grossman said. "The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have instinctively, reflexively known what to do.

"But the thing most likely to kill her kids -- the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn't have a clue what to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian's office but she didn't know that. So she did the worst thing possible -- she tried to secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide in the library -- a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It's an aquarium, it's a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl. What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish bowl."

Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they'd spent preparing for fire doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.

Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, "If somebody had spent five minutes telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?"



Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038391_gun_c ... z2FVpHJPz9