Let's talk quail and quail dogs

[greenheadgrimreaper]

Quail hunters, I am looking for information on dogs and quail hunting.

Through the couple of books I have read and video that I bought I think I have learned this: it is safe to assume that if you have wild quail then "technically" the wild quai will do 75% of the training for you. Is this correct? I know all of your problems will not be solved, but I have access to land- and maybe several thousand acres more than what I currently have access to through a lease- where wild quail have made huge comebacks. There is no mistake about it- they are back. We counted 7 coveys of 10+ birds yesterday afternoon on a 100 acre parcel. I have been wanting to get and train a quail dog for awhile now, and I am willing to sell some duck hunting stuff like my newly acquired boat and motor to help fund it.

Let's say you, John Doe quail hunter, is in the market for a new bird dog. I have looked at and read about the different breeds and their attributes for awhile now. My heart is set on an English Pointer. What, in your opinion, is a reasonable price you'd expect to pay for an EP with a good hunting stock? Other than the check ropes, e-collar, etc which I already have, what am I looking at to get setup to get a dog ready? Bird launchers etc. If I have access to reasonably unharassed birds, how detrimental to the safey of a covey is it that I run a dog on them once in awhile to train?

And finally, I have been on several tamie hunts (the man down the road who is kin to my gf trains dogs and releases birds all the time). I know about what every other person who has only gone on tamie shoots knows about quail hunting...not very much What are some good books, or do they exist, on proper management techniques while hunting? For instance, rules to go by on shooting a covey, where to hunt and not to in order to insure the covey isn't compromised, etc? Obviously I do not want to overshoot and wipe out covey populations. But they are here for the taking and our forrestry practices are making that happen. Any recommended books for someone who is looking to get into the sport? Thanks for any help.

[stitch]

I grew up quail hunting in Eastern North Carolina.......we smacked them back then! We had Pointers, English Setters, and every other breed out there. I hunted over a ton of pointers......and maybe it just the dogs I hunted around but they were all hard headed and wanted to wander off too far. If I had quail on my property and was looking for a dog, I would get an English Setter no question about it. My experience is that they are much calmer and "work" much better.

[greenheadgrimreaper]

Well, if there is any other breed that I am interested in it'd be the German Shorthair.

I have heard all of the negatives about positives about all of them. It seems to me that there are two types of people in the world- those that hate EPs and those that love them. From what I have gathered and been told the EP, without obedience, can be wild as hell, he can be hard headed, he can run off not to be seen for hours chasing scents, etc, etc. But what I have also heard is for all of the negatives en EP is ALL quail, and mr. bobwhite is who he was tailored to hunt. They are fast, run hard and cover LOTS of ground for some, too much ground. My reasoning is that I will need this in todays quail hunting strategy. Cover more ground, find more birds. And also I have benn told that a solid obedience program is the way to put all of the negatives to rest for the EP breed. The fellow I mentioned before has GSPs and EPs so I see the difference in the dogs. He, like a lot of other bird hunters, do not put much emphasis on a solid obedience program. It is just not as crucial to the hunt as it is for a lab while sitting in a blind. With that being said, any dog I own will have obedience training. To me a lab that can't find a bird is not what ruins a hunt, a lab that won't sit down or shut up is. I would imagine a hard headed bird dog that doesn't mind and listening and watching a dog and its owner go back and forth in battle all day is just as much of a spoiler as a breaking lab.

In any case, stitch, let's say I decide to buy a setter. What is a reasonable price for a dog of this breed?

[cmmj63]

I had a GSP that was pointing and holding birds at 4 months old. The biggest trick to the dogs is to not mess them up. A dog with good breeding usually has it in them already and will do most of the work for you. It all depends on what you want. Setters and EP's generally don't retrieve well, not to say that there is always an exception. As far as range goes, they pretty much do what you let them do, I like a close hunting dog, as you said EP's are kinda rangy. I am planning on getting back into it later this year and it will be a GSP all the way. I know a guy that breeds good pups a few times a year, if you don't mind line breeding. As far as your question, it depends on the breeding, I have heard of Setters going from $200 to $7k. BTW, A GOOD SHOCK COLLAR THAT BEEPS IS YOUR FRIEND!

[stang67]

I have a GSP that is an amazing pet. I've never worked with him on anything other than obedience, but I have no doubt he could've been a fantastic hunter. He's probably more from show stock but he has incredible drive, willingness to listen, and intelligence for doing the things I've trained him with and the things he's interested in. I've been around English pointers that seemed a bit *dumber* and less willing to please than the GSPs I've seen. I am a BIG fan of the breed!

On a related note, what management techniques have been used to bring back the quail in your area? What do you think has been the key?

[greenheadgrimreaper]

Stang, as bad as I hate to say it, the forestry industry's love for pine is the key. The timber companies have had time to manage these stands of pine to where they are now bigger and more open. Most of them do not burn or spray the underbrush. We essentially have old overgrown brush that you could easily imagine being in old fallow fields instead of under a loblolly pine canopy. Couple that with the fact that the timber companies will clear cut say, 150 acre blocks at a time. Those clear cuts are so grown up and give the quail the habitat variety that they need. That is the only thing I can figure. They have tall trees, short thick brush, water, open areas that deer hunters plant foodplots in along with the clipped roads that go through the stands of timber- I am guessing this all has given way to a noticeable increase in quail populations. I think the fact that there are thousands and thousands of acres of continuous, thick, underbrush in the area help the quail to hide and reproduce without predation. We all know the kind of cover I am talking about- thick, nasty, grown up cutover brush. No wonder a coyote or hawk can't get them. I guess maybe it is like the duck and the prarie pothole region- if you have large expanses of thick cover then the ducks are less likely to be "sitting ducks." Large, open pine canopies and selective clearcutting is the only thing I can attribute to their numbers exploding.

I have not completely ruled out a GSP. They seem to have everything a thick cover hunter needs and wants. The only conns I have seen for the breed is that they can be hard to break if they ever get off on deer, rabbits, etc because they were bred to be a truly all-purpose feather and fur dog. I have read that you can't train a dog to work out any farther, but you can train one to work in closer. This is my reasoning behind wanting an EP other than hunting over them and preferring their style and drive to the other breeds the fellow down the road has. CMMJ63, what can a fellow expect to pay for a middle of the pack, good hunting stock GSP?

[hillhunter]

I grew up hunting over english pointers and can say that they do have the drive and want to please. Most do range pretty far but that can be corrected easily. I still have a video of my dad training a young pointer. He took a 12 ft crappie pole and a quail wing and used it to teach him steadiness and obedience, also he used it to teach honoring, the only thing better than one quail dog is two. My granddad always used two dogs and the ones he had would all honor the other one's point perfectly. The prettiest thing in the world is a pointer running full speed and stopping on a dime in perfect point... its a totally awesome and natural thing to watch. Steadiness is probably the most important thing when it comes to hunting. A dog that flushes prematurely is very frustrating. There were countless times when we would be hunting CRP and have to look for an hour for a dog that was pointed, nine times out of ten he was still in pointing form waiting on us to get there before going further... now thats a good dog. I often wondered that i bet he was thinking "Just where the hell are they!!" ha.

[greenheadgrimreaper]

I grew up hunting over english pointers and can say that they do have the drive and want to please. Most do range pretty far but that can be corrected easily. I still have a video of my dad training a young pointer. He took a 12 ft crappie pole and a quail wing and used it to teach him steadiness and obedience, also he used it to teach honoring, the only thing better than one quail dog is two. My granddad always used two dogs and the ones he had would all honor the other one's point perfectly. The prettiest thing in the world is a pointer running full speed and stopping on a dime in perfect point... its a totally awesome and natural thing to watch. Steadiness is probably the most important thing when it comes to hunting. A dog that flushes prematurely is very frustrating. There were countless times when we would be hunting CRP and have to look for an hour for a dog that was pointed, nine times out of ten he was still in pointing form waiting on us to get there before going further... now thats a good dog. I often wondered that i bet he was thinking "Just where the hell are they!!" ha.

That's the thing too, I have dreamed of doing and seeing what you described above. The fellow I know who does it says tamies will get the job done, but in terms of football wild birds bring out the best in everyone at the game like the Super Bowl. Most folks my age don't have any idea on what a wild quail hunt is like.

From what I know, in my humble little attempt at trying to understand quail hunting, the whole name of the game is to: get the dog on birds. He will point. He will go in to flush because he wants to shred apart every bird in the covey. You must stop him from doing this. The problem with tamies and bird launchers is that, just like if a lab is left unchecked to creep, he will instill in himself that bad habit of flushing and it'll be even harder on both of us. And if he ever catches a tamie or gets banged up by a hung up bird launcher- he could be ruined for a long long time. The key is to teach him to point, hold on the point and ultimately to retrieve? Steady to hand- in a dream world with perfect conditions concerning an EP. If you train him that if he moves, even an inch, that the bird will flush and he won't get the bird if that happens, then he will be rock steady. Once again, I know from training my lab that this is what the "book" says is supposed to happen.

The wild birds train him to be steady better than any tamie or human contrived apparatus. They teach him very quickly that he better not move a muscle? Is this correct? If so, how bad on quail coveys is it if you go train your dog on live birds in the wild? I see people talking all the time about going out with their dogs and scouting and pointing coveys. Anybody know?

[kris Schaumburg]

If you want pets a Brittany is a fine option.

[hillhunter]

Some dogs are easier to teach than others, just like labs. There are a hundred stories my granddad tells about different dogs he had over the years. The first dog he killed birds over was a shorthair fiest. He had a single shot twenty gauge and was rabbit hunting and noticed that the dog would wag its tail real hard when he came up on a covey.

He also had one that he let some blacks take rabbit hunting to let him get some exercise and point some coveys. When he got the dog back it would point a rabbit to a T but would tuck his tail at a covey of quail. He said from that time on if he saw the dog make a perfect point he knew it was a rabbit.

He had one older dog, the one i learned to shoot over, when he got older got to where he was mostly blind and completely deaf. We always let him tag along if for nothing else to pay respects for the thousands of coveys he had pointed over the years. One day he was trotting along about ten yards behind when we noticed he was missing. We back tracked and were worried cause we knew he couldn't hear us. We ran up on him about a hundred yards back in perfect point... there he was a fifteen year old, half blind, completely deaf dog making a perfect find. A thing of beauty.

That was his last season but it taught me one important thing, that for every dog that can run 30 mph per hour and covey many acres, one that hunts careful and slow is just as important. Ideal would be to have one of each, which is why he usually liked to hunt one young dog with one older dog.

[wingman21]

I love my vizsla, they usually hunt close. Some say closer than any of the other pointers but I think that just depend in the dog. The few times I have had mine on wild birds I have noticed she learns quickly from her mistakes. Not a common Dog but a heck of a sporting breed

[cmmj63]

The guy I know sells puppies for 250-300, and they are line bred. I would expect you could find a good puppy for under 500. Started they run 1000-1500. That's for a hunting line, I also know someone that might be able to help with a setter.

I did tons of research before I decided on my first GSP. It's a good breed.Although they require a lot of attention. Setters and EP's seem to be more of a kennel dog. I like them all, but I also like the idea of taking my GSP on a dove hunt too. I read about folks duck hunting with them as well. As I said earlier, a good shock collar will flat out stop any foolishness involving deer or rabbits. If the bird drive is there, that won't be much of a problem anyway. That's what they are born to do. I personally can't wait to get another pup.

There are several ways to get them to hold birds, a wing on a string works for some and some are just naturals. Mine was a natural until he hunted with some bird busters. That's another thing, be careful who you hunt with, a bad dog will seriously screw up a good dog really quick.

[ScottyLee]

I have a brit. Got her from someone off here when she was 10 months. Shes awesome. Solid on ob, retrieve, and has an awesome nose. Worked on hunt situations some and have put her on a few birds around the house. Dont know much about the other breeds since this is my first time owning and working with a bird dog. Its pretty cool watching your dog set up on the first point. Or even the first retrieve on a bird. Good luck man

[duckhunterdoc]

Hunted 8-10 years with my own dogs..another 3-4 going with other people prior to that...wild quail is the only thing that rivals a Duck floating in..in my book ..Got out of it when my Daughter started running College Track...watched the Dogs sit in the Kennel all of Feb...not good for them or me...so they had to go...hope to get back into it one day..so here is my opinion...if you got that many Birds, you're way too worried about the Dogs...just do it....Having Birds is a much Bigger problem than any Dog problem you can/can't fix.......Perfect world......hunting in tight woods where visiblity is 50-150yds...get 3 close dogs (Brit, or English setter) hunting the Delta/Prairie(big open fields) then English pointers...Haven't had Much experience with GSP but you can research where they fit in..Why 3? always have 2 running,one resting....depending on temp 2-3 hours may be max time on a dog...Hunting with another Dog owner helps solve a Dog Power problem...I started out with 1 EP...so you can start anywhere...But my best team was 2 EP 1 ES..(that worked close)..on the EP a beeper collar or GPS is a must IMO...Had 2 Diff Hunter/Dog owners I Hunted with--But not at the same time...Shooters-- 2 is perfect,, 3 is ok-little crowded..4 is Dangerous...But all depending on the peoples experience...Tamies are way more Dangerous than wild...But you can search the Tamie topic..has already been discussed...I can probably hook you up with the Old Timers that trained me.if you like..Pm me .. BTW a good Day Hunting was walking Six hours for 2 covies...Stopped shooting a covey at 4-6 Birds..(4).. Hope that helps

[grnhed]

I do a ton of quail and upland hunting. I am in a quail hunting club up in Tennessee. We hunt wild and pen raised birds. We also have a large kennel where we breed, raise, train, hunt and sell bird dogs.

If you have any questions, looking for a pup, or just want my 2 cents shoot me a PM and I'll give you my number.