As a judge....

[gator]

and, a handler for that matter, are you or should you be concerned about a finished dog that handles on a mark?

while i'd like to focus this question on HRC test (and the reason will be apparent), it's my opinion you could also extrapolate a bit from it concerning AKC test as well.

the old adage i've often heard is "i want to have a handle to burn going into the second series" remembering HRC test. to me that means, you get one handle, but 2 and you're done.

why?

to me alot would fall back on our (being HRC's) philosophy of judging hunting retrievers. you get one or 2 people in a pit or a timber hole and my old dude Gauge may not see every bird........a dog that's hunted several flyways and from the top to the bottom - read very experienced. marking off the gun, w/ no sound in the field, an honor and working dog firing multiple shots doesn't lend itself (IMHO) to a dog seeing every mark, all the time.

instead of closing the book once the second handle occurs, i watch the dog and handler work together as a team, to get the bird in the quickest fashion possible at that point.

i don't know if this is happening, but i am curious as to you folks thoughts on this....

gator
then, at the end of the day, i simply ask would i hunt w/ that dog given the level of testing?

[GulfCoast]

Not a judge, but a handle TO the AOF is different than handle IN the AOF. The latter is not so much of an issue as the first. I have "burned a handle" in the first series, handled IN the AOF on the second after a decent tight hunt, thought I was dropped, and had the judge thank me for conserving time and got a ribbon. YMMV.

[Super-X]

Let's see - the marks are to test marking and memory, and in finished the judge is looking for the dog to be able to watch multiple birds and remember where they are. If your dog marks the bird , he should go to the area-of -fall, and if he doesn't "step-on-it", he should establish a "hunt". If dog has to be handled to the area it did not mark the bird. If this happens on 2 birds in the same set of marks, then the dog did not meet the standard of marking and memory.

Not a finished judge, but, my take on it.

[Doc & Nash]

Per the rule book the finished dog must show the ability to mark both a land series of marks and a water series of marks. IMO, if the finished dog picks up two birds clean and makes the AOF for the third AND establishes a hunt in the area but does not come up with the bird, to me he has marked the bird. If the handler has to put him on the bird with one or two quick whistles then I am not going to ding him very much at all if any.

If the dog has to be handled to the area of the fall for the mark then he just got dinged for Marking and memory. Depending on the severity of this it could fail a dog. If he does it on two marks in the same series he has not shown me the ability to mark and then he is out.

Keep in mind, each series is a different test. If you handle on a land mark, theroretically your performance on land should have nothing to do with the water marks. I have seen instances where extraordinary circumstances are factored in and the comment is made to wait and see. Even though this is not the way it should happen it does on occasion and can be justified. Keep in mind every test should be exactally the same for every dog.

Also remember, If a dog proceeds in a straight line towards the AOF and blows thru it with out establishing a hunt and has to be stopped and tooted in then to me all that dog has shown me is the ability to take a good line, not marking. Do this twice in one series then it could be enough to drop you.

Hope that helps, If my interpretation is wrong then maybe someone with alot more experience will chime in.

[chance]

In any marking scenario, the hunting retriever must see the bird in the air, proceed to the area of the fall, establish a hunt in the fall area and retrieve the bird. The same guidelines apply to started, seasoned and finished. It is a simple as that.
Seasoned and finished retrievers are required to "remember" mupliple falls. A seasoned retriever must pick a double up cleanly. A finished retriever must pick up a triple cleanly. This distinction seperates the two divisions. There will also be more challenges in completing the task as the retriever moves from season to finished. Having said all of this, finished judges, beware the finished double. It leaves no room for error in that series.
The question is always asked, "Does two handles on marks in finished eliminate the retriever?" The answer is "No". The reason, or distinction between handles, is defined by HTA,(handle to the area of the fall), and HIA, (handle in the area of the fall). If a retriever proceeds to the area of the fall and establishes a hunt, the principles of memory and marking could, theoretically, be satisfied. The retriever's inability to come up with the bird, sometimes to the point of leaving the area of the fall, does not mean the dog did not "mark" the bird. Judges will always record the handle and they will always make the determination if that handle was HTA or HIA. In any event, the retrieve must be accomplished by the dog finding the bird and retrieving it to the handler.
Establishing a hunt is determined by the retriever. When it puts its nose down and begins to circle, it has established a hunt. The area of the fall changes with distance, cover changes, terrain and multiple retrieves. The "go bird" has a relatively small area of the fall. Last bird down will, typically, have a larger area of the fall.
The area of the fall rest solely in the judges opinions. Ultimately, they have to make the determination if the retriever has established a hunt in the area of the fall. Judges will ask handlers to put the dog on the bird, when in their opinion the dog has satisfied memory and marking or is totally out of the area and cannot possibly find the bird where it is hunting.
I am not a licensed AKC judge but I have attended the AKC judges seminar on several occasions. AKC judges are instructed to be much more critical in the judgement of handling on marks than their UKC counterparts.
gator, gotta say, it is all in the judges opinions. That is what you paid for and that is what you got. Finished retrievers don't fail for handling on two marks. They fail for not satisfying all the elements of marking and memory.

[gator]

gator, gotta say, it is all in the judges opinions. That is what you paid for and that is what you got.

not me, honest injun....i haven't run a hunt test in coming on 3 years.

i just think that drawing that kind of line in the sand, DEPENDING on numerous factors, may not be the most appropriate thing. in the AOF or to the AOF or not.

again, this is nothing more than a hypothetical, b/c let's face it, the internet as a whole is frickin dead when it comes to dawg talk.......gator

[goosebruce]

Should we be concearned my fuzzy friend gator asks. If we weren't concearned if they could mark, why bother to throw them?

All that goings on gator asks.... All that going on is hunting, and marking as it relates to hunting. Thats the reason for hidden guns and only 150 yard birds.... Remove all that going on, and hidden guns, and well, you could stretch the same dogs out and expect them to mark at 250-400 yards.... Wait, theres already a fine game testing them that way bro!

Handling in the area, truely in the area, is a rarity. It gets talked about a lot more than it happens. Running thru an area doesn't cut it, neither does leaving an area. The dog that proceeds directly to the area of fall, distance and direction, and establishes a hunt has marked the bird per hrc defiention. Maybe the bird sank, got butted up against a levee, floated away in the wind, landed in front of a haybale where a dog is where he should be, but cant come up with it, or something to that effect. Handling in the area, 90% of the time means something goofy happened to that bird. 2 passes thru and then leaving, aint making the area. But 2 passes, getting wide, and the dog going, nope it landed where I was and coming back to hunt that same place, very well may be. Different dogs, different speeds, different breeds, all will show it differently, but its clear when you see it.

How i handle it as a judge.... I explain the marking objectives of the test (swing and mark off gun, track birds, proceede DIRECTLY to area of fall distance and direction, and establish a hunt). So everyone knows what we're doing beforehand... most questions answer themsevles. Secondly, when i sat that test up with my co judge, we talked about WHAT the area of falls are. We talked about where a dog should, and shouldnt be. Where a dog could hunt, and where a dog couldnt. That way where perfectly clear on if a dog marked a bird or not. Running around until you find a bird might make ya feel good, but it isnt marking (although its judged as such entirely too much in hrc). By having 3 seperate areas of the fall, its easy to tell if a dog ought to be somewhere. And just as easy to see they are where somewhere they shouldn't be. If a dog has went directly to area of fall, distance and direction, and established a hunt to your satisfaction as a judge, at that point I polietly tell the handler they've made the bird, do what they want. If a dog is hunting somewhere that isn't an aof, I polietly tell them to put the dog on a bird. 3 distinct areas of fall, decided on ahead of time, its easy as pie to tell if a dog has made a bird or not, and how to judge.

Shotguns and honor dogs are part of it. But some things do distract from marking (hrc defiention), and can be a beetch to judge. Inlines.... how do you judge the dog that goes to no mans land, and hunts back to short bird, goes back and hunt back to long bird.... ya dont, ya mark it ok and go on. Its a long long awful day. When you made the falls inline, you effectively hampered distance, so direction and staying with it makes a bird. It sucks. Never set one up, but have judged one someone else set up and it sucks. Desginating order.... hrc allows to throw 3, and select the 1st or 2nd bird thrown to be the first picked up. Sure would hate to judge something like that. My marking test just gave way to control, and I already gots lots of place to judge that. I dont like to think that hard... have designated a go bird before to pick up, but never anything else (for dogs that wouldnt swing) and wouldnt.

Release wingers are the biggest assett a judge could have. birds come out where and when they are supposed too. Judge accordingly is the worst phrase in judging. It basically means 90% of the time the mechanics of your test screwed up, so you're going to give a bird away. Again, why throw it if its not going to be judged.

Beware of the finished double... glen is RIGHT on with that. No room for error in a dog marking performance.

trey while seperate tests (land and water) a dog that doesn't show finished marking and memory for either series does fail. A dog that doesn't mark a bird shows a lack of marking and memory, and doing that mutiple times is definetly not finished work. Any of the seperate tests clearly failed fails a dog for the day, but cumaltive work can also fail a dog. travis

[cdwyer]

Great Stuff! Two of the most experienced finished judges in our area. Anybody aspiring to become a judge or a good finish level handler should pick these guys brains and if anything is not clear ask. We are fortunate to have a great amount of experience locally. Glenn Dye, Travis Bruce, Ronnie Harwell, Barlow, Stan Brown, etc. If you ever have the chance to train with these guys and see what and why a bird is put where, what factors are going to affect your dog, the order of the throws, direction of the throws. These guys can set up a test to test a dog's ability and not have to rely on "we will judge it accordinly" you can walk away from any of their lines knowing where you stand. If you have the opportunity to marshall for any of these guys or help with set up, do it. Listen to their discussions and ask questions, I'm sure none of them will be put off to explain why they are setting up a mark the way they are.

Good stuff!

[gator]

Great Stuff! Two of the most experienced finished judges in our area. Anybody aspiring to become a judge or a good finish level handler should pick these guys brains and if anything is not clear ask. We are fortunate to have a great amount of experience locally. Glenn Dye, Travis Bruce, Ronnie Harwell, Barlow, Stan Brown, etc. If you ever have the chance to train with these guys and see what and why a bird is put where, what factors are going to affect your dog, the order of the throws, direction of the throws. These guys can set up a test to test a dog's ability and not have to rely on "we will judge it accordinly" you can walk away from any of their lines knowing where you stand. If you have the opportunity to marshall for any of these guys or help with set up, do it. Listen to their discussions and ask questions, I'm sure none of them will be put off to explain why they are setting up a mark the way they are.

Good stuff!

charles, this discussion is exactly why i asked.

i'm not degrading any venue cause quite frankly i love them all..............

gator

[beamer]

enjoyed the read.......especially for a rookie like me

[wesley hamm]

travis,

that was one of the best post I have ever read regarding marking in HRC. I would proudly run under your judgement any given weekend

wesley

[chance]

Aw gator. I know you were not being specific. I just meant it is in the judges hands because there is no line in the sand. We hope that every judge goes by the rule book, thereby, we see consistency in testing scenarios and judgments. I remember one of your last HRC hunt tests. Picking up spoonies outside of Hattiesburg Miss. We even chowed down on steak at the Andy's Sportsman Lodge one weekend.
I think you will find that AKC judges are much more strict with their judgement of marking and memory than UKC judges. I truly feel that UKC judges allow more "hunt" than AKC judges. I have heard the term "guerrilla hunt" from more than one master judge.
One thing else I would caution anyone on is the question "Would I hunt with that dog?". There are a lot out there that would be a pleasure to hunt with, but, they cannot perform satisfactorily at the intended testing level. This is not a question judges will answer when failing a dog.

[gator]

We hope that every judge goes by the rule book, thereby, we see consistency in testing scenarios and judgments.

you know, as strange as this is going to sound, i haven't really looked at it like that i a while. could be the lack of testing lately?

nicely put, gator

[Troy Williams]

Handling in the area, truely in the area, is a rarity. It gets talked about a lot more than it happens. Running thru an area doesn't cut it, neither does leaving an area. The dog that proceeds directly to the area of fall, distance and direction, and establishes a hunt has marked the bird per hrc defiention. Maybe the bird sank, got butted up against a levee, floated away in the wind, landed in front of a haybale where a dog is where he should be, but cant come up with it, or something to that effect. Handling in the area, 90% of the time means something goofy happened to that bird. 2 passes thru and then leaving, aint making the area. But 2 passes, getting wide, and the dog going, nope it landed where I was and coming back to hunt that same place, very well may be. Different dogs, different speeds, different breeds, all will show it differently, but its clear when you see it.

How i handle it as a judge.... I explain the marking objectives of the test (swing and mark off gun, track birds, proceede DIRECTLY to area of fall distance and direction, and establish a hunt). So everyone knows what we're doing beforehand... most questions answer themsevles. Secondly, when i sat that test up with my co judge, we talked about WHAT the area of falls are. We talked about where a dog should, and shouldnt be. Where a dog could hunt, and where a dog couldnt. That way where perfectly clear on if a dog marked a bird or not. Running around until you find a bird might make ya feel good, but it isnt marking (although its judged as such entirely too much in hrc). By having 3 seperate areas of the fall, its easy to tell if a dog ought to be somewhere. And just as easy to see they are where somewhere they shouldn't be. If a dog has went directly to area of fall, distance and direction, and established a hunt to your satisfaction as a judge, at that point I polietly tell the handler they've made the bird, do what they want. If a dog is hunting somewhere that isn't an aof, I polietly tell them to put the dog on a bird. 3 distinct areas of fall, decided on ahead of time, its easy as pie to tell if a dog has made a bird or not, and how to judge.

travis

With what you said about hunting the area and not coming up with the bird....and once a judge is satisfied, as you said, once YOU are satisfied, then you release handler to do what he wants......I'm guessing dog satisfied the requirements meaning that you scored the dog as "Marked" the bird. And if so, I can agree! BUT does it leave something, anything out? To get to the question, is there anything in the HRC judging philosophy that reqires judges to assess the dogs nose? I got dropped once in an AKC master for not cmoming up with the bird after dog hunted the AOF for days, you were there, at MSHRC, remember?

Troy

Troy

[chance]

Troy, that is the very distinction I see between AKC and UKC judges whan they are judging marking and memory. AKC judges tend to not allow a handle in the area of the fall. They have more areas, concerning the retriever's performance, to actually score. Nose and perserverance will be scored on an AKC judges sheet. The accumulation of scores gives you a pass or not, as the case may be.
Think about this-
The situation is a water series in a very stiff wind. The memory bird is blown away from the original fall area. The retriever goes directly to the fall area, but, no bird. It has been blown twenty yards from where it fell. Of course the retriever is way upwind of the bird. Without any other suppositions, did this retriever satisfy the requirements of marking and memory, even if it were handled to the bird? Would this situation be judged differently under AKC guidelines than UKC guidelines? Should it be?
What if it were a land series and the retriever continued a tight hunt just upwind of a land mark in relatively heavy cover?
The situations could be endless. No one wants to handle on a mark. We prefer our retrievers to be able to mark and remember, then pick those birds up cleanly, without our assistance. As I heard it said once, the marks are the dog's reponsibily.
Now, would I hunt with a dog that sat quietly in the blind and picked up evey bird killed, even though it was handle on every one? Of course!