"Religious people" and politics.

[driveby]

I've been thinking about this since last night and I can't keep it to myself any more. Imagine that huh. Many times I am taken to task when I take a religious stance on a subject. I have even heard it said and read on this very board that religion should stay out of politics. Religious people should not try to legislate morality. On the other hand, I've read on here how God has a plan for all this. Well, let me give you something to think about. "Religious people" stayed out of politics, now our children can't pray in school. "Religious people" stayed out of politics, now the Bible can't be read in school. "Religious people" stayed out of politics, now it's OK for men to marry men and women to mary women in some states. "Religious people" stayed out of politics, now it's OK to end an unborn childs life for any reason and at any time.
Now we have a newly elected leader. Our newly elected president claims that some people cling to their guns and religion. "Religious people" are the reason we are here. If it weren't for "religious people" with guns, we would be bowing to the queen. If it weren't for "religious people" with guns, we would be sending tax money to England. If it weren't for "religious people" with guns, we would not be enjoying the freedoms we have today. Maybe that's why our newly elected president is so opposed to both guns and religion. Maybe, just maybe, over the next 4 years, people will think twice when they say "religious people" should stay out of politics.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
I'll step off my soap box now.

[tombstone]

This kinda goes along with the "Support your gov't" thing. If all the text is read, it says support them unil they rebel against Biblical truths.

Wingman stated it correctly earlier in another thread. We sat around and did nothing while it all happened. I am as guilty or more guilty than anyone.

[crow]

Wow! So much bad information in such a short space!

Funny, I was at a public high school this morning at 7:00 with about 200 kids around the flag pole praying for our country and it's new leader. It was organized by students and publicized at school as well as in the community. I've never heard more fervent prayers in most of the churches I've attended. There are 15 o15 high schools in this public school district that have Bible clubs that meet weekly to study scripure after school.

The only difference in today and 40 years ago is that no one tried to tell these kids how or what to pray. No one forced them to do a dad-gummed thing religiously. But, they sure nuff made me proud today!

God is probably more alive in this nation's schools that he is in most churches! Now, if you'd said, "God in no longer in our families, and we let it happen." "God is no longer in our communities, and we let it happen," I might just agree with you.

The schools had nothing to do with who was elected president. So, go blow it out your ear!


I need to apologize for my rant above and I'm editing it by adding how I really feel rather than what my emotions tell me. I'll close my thoughts by quoting a notable authority on "religious" matters:

"When my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sins, and I will heal their land."

crow

[Ordek Avci]

Or maybe we as "religious people" need to figure out what our priorities really are.

Keeping church and state separated is just as important for the church as it is for the state. I think there are a lot of people in this country that are sick and tired of people playing the "God card." I think it has made a lot of people cynical towards Christianity, the same way that serious civil liberty issues are brushed to the side due to the overuse of the "race card."

Let us remember that we don't need a Christian government to live out the requirements of our faith. Christianity was born in a land with an oppressive dictator and it flourished. We can love God and love our neighbor without the help, endorsement, or even the permission of the government.

We are given the right to elect people that represent our beliefs and there is nothing wrong with doing what we can to make that happen. But we need to be careful that we are not putting too much of our hope into these men and these institutions. We need to remember that no matter who is in power, we can still live out every aspect of our faith.

God is sovereign. The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will (Prov. 21:1). And has been stated, he commands us to pray for and submit to the authorities that he has placed over us. Let us strive to be obedient to that, as well as all the other commandments.

The church doesn't need the support of the government to be the church and to do the things the church is called to do.

[driveby]

Crow, I don't doubt what you witnessed. However what you are referring to, if done in the location and at the time mentioned, had nothing to do with school. Let a student try to lead a prayer in a classroom and see if it isn't treated differently. At many school athletic events, a prayer has been replaced by a moment of silence. By all means where is all the bad information you speak of?
The schools had nothing to do with who was elected president. So, go blow it out your ear!
My post didn't say one thing about blaming the schools. If it did, cut and paste it. I'll gladly apologize. If you are a teacher at this school, I hope and pray you don't teach reading comprehension. Go blow it out my ear? Is that the attitude you participated in that prayer with? I had no intention of this thread taking on a hostile tone. You seem to want to travel that road though.

Ordek,
Keeping church and state separated is just as important for the church as it is for the state.
I don't know about the constitution over in Turkey, but the one over here doesn't have a thing in it about seperation of church and state. It says that the state shall not establish a religion. That was meant to protect the church from influence by the state, not the other way around.
Let us remember that we don't need a Christian government to live out the requirements of our faith. Christianity was born in a land with an oppressive dictator and it flourished. We can love God and love our neighbor without the help, endorsement, or even the permission of the government.

We are given the right to elect people that represent our beliefs and there is nothing wrong with doing what we can to make that happen. But we need to be careful that we are not putting too much of our hope into these men and these institutions.
This I agree with 100%. We are to keep our faith no matter what our government says. And I in know way endorse putting your faith in these men or institutions. I do believe though that we should elect people who are more in line with our faith. We need to vote with our principles and not our pocket books.
The church doesn't need the support of the government to be the church and to do the things the church is called to do.
I never said the church needs anything from the government. There is a lot, however, the government needs from the church. Yes, the church needs to do the things it is called to do and being silent on issues of principle is not what it's called to do.

[Wingman]

The church doesn't need the support of the government to be the church and to do the things the church is called to do.

Ask a Chinese Christian how he feels about his government.

[crow]

Driveby, I deserved what I got from you. I vented my frustration with all this, too. I am sorry I jumped on you.

Warts and all, it's my country and I love her. What an incredible place where a complete sea-change in govt. can take place and there be little ot no violence. Many of us are really upset right now, but you know, I ain't leaving. I'll fight for the best person the next time.

Again, sorry I jumped you.

crow

[Ordek Avci]

First of all, I would say that things like public, school endorsed prayer is not something the church should be worried about. Those are not matters of principle. On issues such as abortion, I agree whole heartedly with you.

But secondly, I would argue that the founding fathers (ironically, both in the US and in Turkey), saw separation of church and state just as, if not more, necessary for the true and pure workings of both. On the one hand, dictating to people what religion they must follow does nothing to further anybody's faith. You can't expect someone to be forced to "believe" in something and have it mean anything to that person. A faith that is forced down someone's throat will just be vomitted back into your face (I am not talking about evangelism, which we as Christians are called to, by the way). To say that the idea of separation of church and state is to stop state-endorsed religions is correct, but only half correct.

It is a historical fact that the founding fathers, at the encouragement of their Christian constituents, championed separation of church and state for the good of the church as well. "Strongly guarded is the separation between religion & government in the Constitution of the United States," James Madison wrote. And he declared, "practical distinction between religion and civil government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States." In a letter to Edward Livingston, Madison further expanded, "We are teaching the world the great truth that governments. do better without kings & nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that religion flourishes in greater purity without, than with, the aid of government." The idea was also supported by Thomas Jefferson, who actually coined the phrase as a way to sum up the Constitution's stance toward religion. "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." If you'd like to explore the idea further, the book Founding Faith: Providence, Politics, and the Birth of Religious Freedom in America is an interesting read.

I am sure that you and I agree more than we disagree.

I don't believe that the policies and laws of this country direct society's morals, but instead they reflect them. If we want to be agents of change, then the body of believers needs to take serious the call to live holy lives, to pray without ceasing, and to love and care for their neighbors. That, in my opinion, would do more to further the Gospel in this country, thereby instilling more of a Christian ethic back to this great nation.

[Ordek Avci]

And Wingman, I lived with a Turkish Christian who was beaten to the point of almost dying for his faith. It was an unprovoked attack. One of the men who beat him stated in court that they had just come to beat someone from the church. They didn't care who, my roommate just happened to be the guy in charge of closing up that day. Yet, even with that, my roommate was called to court over the summer for yet another hearing claiming that the boys couldn't have beaten him, they were in school. The boys were caught on site, on a day that school was not in session, yet the school magically, over 2 and a half years later, found records that show the boys at school. Does this sound like the kind of government that lends a helping hand to the local churches? Yet in an election that almost led to a military coup and civil unrest, the believers I knew exercised their legal rights and prayed hard for the men in power. The same men that refuse to punish three fundamentalists that severely tortured and killed three Christians just last May.

These Christians, and thousands like them in different places around the world, put their hope and faith in a God that reigns over all earthly governments. They trust that God is sovereign and that his will is done. And they trust that, just as he promised, He is with them to the end. They don't expect life to be easy. They don't expect the government to back them. They don't even expect the government to protect them. Yet they continue on, in faith, for the glory of God.

I pray that the church in America has the same depth of faith that the church in Turkey, China, Iran, etc. has.

[crowder critter]

How do you separate church from state. If you are a devout Christian, your beliefs and faith will be in everything that you do whether it be your job, gov't, social events, etc. A true believer does not just play "church" on Sunday morning.

[Hayes]

Just my 2 cents.

Disclaimer: I dont know exactly how the constitution reads but I can tell you how I feel and How I beleive that our founders felt.

From everything I have read and seen points that our founding fathers founded this nation on biblical principals. Our currency has "In God we trust on it".

I feel that personal repsonsibility is lacking in this country and in many mens lives. For example: Today on JT and Dave they had a Pastor on the air from Union County that was one of the key voices in keeping Union County Dry. The argument that JT and Dave and the communuty raised against this was that it would lead to more Drinking and Driving. Well look that is not the laws/Govt problem. If the citizen decided to go get the alcohol and drink and drive that is him being irresponsible. We have way to much GOVT and legislation and not enough personal responsibility. We have gotten away from morality and doing the right thing. Both black and white young girls are having kids at amazing rates and they have govt incentives to do so. This country is very close to 50/50. 50% of us supporting the other 50%. Look I have a mother that is on disability I can talk about this first hand and I love my mother to death. But its time to take a serious look at who all we are supporting and start culling. It is my opinion that there is a job that most everyone can do whether you are disabled or not. If you have a bad back or bad knees let the govt place you in a productive job somewhere as a secretary or computer postion within the govt. I cant exactly get all my thought out like I want but I think you all get the point. As I too am very dissapointed in where we are as a nation. I will however do my part and beleive that My GOD is in control and I will pray and support to the best of my ability the Leader of this country.

[hencutter]

The founding fathers were seperating from a country where you had to be a member of the Church of England or else you were a second class citizen.( I recommend the writings of Rev. Charles Woodmason - a South Carolina preacher on the eve of the American Revolution .This will give a great first person impression of 18th cen. religon in the south) . Many French Huegenots ( protestants) were officers,etc. in the American Revolution,and they were well aware of what happened in France, Spain or Italy if you left the "state" church - Roman Catholic that is. They would simply burn you at the stake ,that is all.
All of this said to show simply that one denomination would not be the state run church. The vast majority of thr founding fathers were active in there respective Christian churchs (and only Christian!-no native American,hindu,islam,etc.!) and some of them were clergy. Some founded Christian universities where the Bible was the main textbook.They never intended for there to be no refrence to the Bible,Jesus,etc. in taxpayer supported places.

[driveby]

Hey! It's baaaack.
Ordek, read this quote from Ben Franklin. Pay real close attention to the last part and tell me if they intended for God to be removed from our government.
"All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

[Duck Picker]

I think that y'all are looking at this issue in an fundamentally wrong way. The Church, as an institution, is not really intended to influence the Government as an institution. The Church is nothing more than the Body of Christ...it is made up of everyone who is a true Christian. The Government, in turn, is also made up of a group of people. The way that the "Church" influences the "Government" is by individual Christians fulfilling the Great Commission and influencing other individuals - some of which make up the "Government". As posted earlier, personal responsibility is lacking in our society today, and it takes the responsibility off of ourselves if we say that the "Church" should do a better job of influencing the Government. For the most part, American Christians are doing a horrible job of evangelizing our society and I blame myself and the "Church of America" - the individuals who make it up - for the condition of our society. When we began putting our own agenda's over that of God's we became lazy Christians, and we are seeing the consequences of that. We didn't/don't have to live like Turkish or Chinese Christians...we still have an opportunity to keep our country from reaching that point and keep us from having to live that way, but it will take Christians waking up and each taking individual responsibility for changing this country, this "Government", one person at a time. God has used this election to really convict me of the sucky job I have been doing and has burdened me to get up off of my booty and get busy being about His agenda and not my own.

[driveby]

I think that y'all are looking at this issue in an fundamentally wrong way. The Church, as an institution, is not really intended to influence the Government as an institution. The Church is nothing more than the Body of Christ...it is made up of everyone who is a true Christian. The Government, in turn, is also made up of a group of people. The way that the "Church" influences the "Government" is by individual Christians fulfilling the Great Commission and influencing other individuals - some of which make up the "Government". As posted earlier, personal responsibility is lacking in our society today, and it takes the responsibility off of ourselves if we say that the "Church" should do a better job of influencing the Government. For the most part, American Christians are doing a horrible job of evangelizing our society and I blame myself and the "Church of America" - the individuals who make it up - for the condition of our society. When we began putting our own agenda's over that of God's we became lazy Christians, and we are seeing the consequences of that. We didn't/don't have to live like Turkish or Chinese Christians...we still have an opportunity to keep our country from reaching that point and keep us from having to live that way, but it will take Christians waking up and each taking individual responsibility for changing this country, this "Government", one person at a time. God has used this election to really convict me of the sucky job I have been doing and has burdened me to get up off of my booty and get busy being about His agenda and not my own.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! As you said, the church is the people and we as people have an obligation to do our part to influence those around us. One should nat have to give up their voice in government matters if they are a member of the church. They should also not sacrifice their principles when voicing their concerns. People should not have to sacrifice part of their first amendment rights in order exercise the other parts.