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I tell you another good thing about setters. Yes they pick up cockleburs and lots of stuff like that. But when the birds get busted up and retreat into the thick nasty stuff.. That Ol setter can get in that thick stuff and get to those birds. The briars and such are just too much for shorthaired dogs..

Thanks for the info guys. I see we have all found something we can generally agree on- quail. Maybe because 75% of us don't anything about them, or at least the ones under 40. Either way, her is one long booty looking post.

wingman21 wrote:I love my vizsla, they usually hunt close. Some say closer than any of the other pointers but I think that just depend in the dog. The few times I have had mine on wild birds I have noticed she learns quickly from her mistakes. Not a common Dog but a heck of a sporting breed

I seriously considered a vizsla. But maaan the few I have found reminded me of going to a 5 star eatery with nothing but "market prices." They seem to fit the profile of what I am looking for nicely. I just don't know if I can handle that price right now- as much as I'd love to. A fellow who used to be my neighbor had one and it was a beautiful dog and smart.

duckhunterdoc wrote:Hunted 8-10 years with my own dogs..another 3-4 going with other people prior to that...wild quail is the only thing that rivals a Duck floating in..in my book ..Got out of it when my Daughter started running College Track...watched the Dogs sit in the Kennel all of Feb...not good for them or me...so they had to go...hope to get back into it one day..so here is my opinion...if you got that many Birds, you're way too worried about the Dogs...just do it....Having Birds is a much Bigger problem than any Dog problem you can/can't fix.......Perfect world......hunting in tight woods where visiblity is 50-150yds...get 3 close dogs (Brit, or English setter) hunting the Delta/Prairie(big open fields) then English pointers...Haven't had Much experience with GSP but you can research where they fit in..Why 3? always have 2 running,one resting....depending on temp 2-3 hours may be max time on a dog...Hunting with another Dog owner helps solve a Dog Power problem...I started out with 1 EP...so you can start anywhere...But my best team was 2 EP 1 ES..(that worked close)..on the EP a beeper collar or GPS is a must IMO...Had 2 Diff Hunter/Dog owners I Hunted with--But not at the same time...Shooters-- 2 is perfect,, 3 is ok-little crowded..4 is Dangerous...But all depending on the peoples experience...Tamies are way more Dangerous than wild...But you can search the Tamie topic..has already been discussed...I can probably hook you up with the Old Timers that trained me.if you like..Pm me .. BTW a good Day Hunting was walking Six hours for 2 covies...Stopped shooting a covey at 4-6 Birds..(4).. Hope that helps

Doc, I will take the advice to heart on having birds is the bigger problem. I certainly don’t want to over-analyze the situation, but I also don’t want to make a mistake and get a dog that doesn’t fit my needs. I have read a few books and have one highly recommended DVD series with some different philosophies on training. I understand completely the sometimes slow, agonizing process of dog training. But I also understand the rewards. I definitely want a dog with style. Maybe one that will do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4DtCF6diko . I can afford another dog, but two might strain my budget. I am big on budgets, hence not having a boat trailer for a boat and motor because I have yet to find a decent one for $200. My hunting situation will almost certainly be with a visibility of less than 100 yards. But there are several areas that I have access to that are much higher in visibility- not in proportions like that of the delta, though.

The way I figure, a 5 hours for a few quail can’t be much worse than 5 hours for a few mallards! Hey, I can always stop and look for arrowheads. The 4 to 6 birds per covey, is this in a season or…what time frame are you talking about? Also, are there any adverse effects on the quail if I run the dog on them a few times a week? Sorry for the questions with obvious answers, but I don’t know much about it at all!

Natty wrote:~70 birds in a 100 acre parcel? In MS??? Must be livin right... Dad has had pointers all his life. Always had two up until a few years ago when both had passed and picked up a jip puppy. She has turned out to be one of his best ever. Took her out to Kansas at 6mths and was pointing pheasants as soon as the tailgate dropped. Granddad sold two of his pointers to a doctor in Scotland after "The War". Needed the money but said he couldn't get over getting rid of them. I have never seen a dog with more energy than a pointer. That being said don't be like a lot of folks and leave them in the pen 24/7. That burns me up. They need to let that energy out. When it comes time to hunt they will be used to being out and won't go batsh!t crazy and run to the other end of the county. I'm sure dad would like to get in touch with you. You do the shooting and he'll bring the dog.

I’m telling you man, I seent it. I haven’t been back to this area since back in the late winter, but every time I go I think bad thoughts about duck hunting. I ain’t saying we didn’t possibly scare up some birds we had previously seen, because the roads through the property do kind of wind back on each other. It is a possibility. But I will say it was enough bobwhites running around to make the miller lite excited as well.
How much exercise are we talking about? I am seriously considering one of those e- fence setups, even if I don’t get another dog right now, for my lab. Taking them out for a walk won’t be a problem as I go out at least a few days a week with Angus anyhow. If I bought the bird dog, I’d jump in head high and use the walks for training. With Angus’ knees like they are, I’d really like to train with him on being extremely sharp with obedience so he could mark my down birds. I think it’d be much easier on his knees than parting the waters for a duck in a buck brush thicket. So, retrieving may not be that big of a deal for the pointer.

Deadeye wrote:Do this.. give this guy a call. He manages Longleaf Plantation and can tell you anything you want to know about bird dogs. Most of his guides train and use their own personal dogs. I've hunted with some awesome dogs trained by bird hunters that have 50+ years in the sport. Ask 10 different old timer quail hunters and you'll get 10 different answers but you'll come away with the traits of each dog.

I have a German Shorthair and this dog is by far the fastest learner, quickest to please dog I've ever had. She's is primarily a retriever for me but you can see her pointing ability that is bred into her. She'll point squirrels on the ground like it's automatic to her... she'll point her tennis balls and whatever has a scent. It's awesome to watch her in the yard and see her natural instinct take over.

Again, call Longleaf and ask for Reece.

Dead

I’ll definitely look him up and give him a shout.

bigwater wrote:1st let me say this.. I'm ecstatic to hear someone talk about the return of the wild quail. I've caught wind of this on some wrp tracts around the delta. I hope over the next 15 yrs this trend continues.. I think I'm safe in saying this but at one time quail hunting was probably the most popular form of hunting in the state.

I'm partial to english setters as those seemed to be our best dogs growing up. We had four generations of setters. Rock who my grandfather was offered $750.00 for in the late 70's. He was a helluva English setter, rocks son joe. A great dog who loved to hunt anything. Spiro which was joes son. He was a good dog. And then the last of the line spiros son doc. He too was a good dog, but the quail hunting around home had taken a dive for the worse as doc came into his prime..

Some things that stick out after reading this thread. 75% of teaching a dog to quail hunt is about getting the dog in birds. That's a good point. Let the dog get on some birds and if there worth a crap they'll quickly learn the do's and dont's..

Someone pointed out the combination of having one dog that ranges farther out and one dog that hunts closer.. Very good system.. The pointer will get out there and cover the ground while the setter worked in a little closer to the hunters

And lastly someone pointed out that if you have birds you got most of this thing whooped. I think their right about that.. You'll be able to find a couple of bird dogs that will serve you well..

All in all I would go with a pointer and a setter..

Good luck.. With this..quail hunting was a way of life in my family for many years. When I read this I immediatly flashed back to many many years ago hunting with my father and younger brother. I can see my dad pulling up to some 16th section land we use to have permission to hunt. We'd been hunting most of the day and my dad was like you boys stay here with the truck I'll take joe (Our English setter) down this line and see if theres anything down there.. If y'all see me wave my orange cap come a running. I can still see him waving that cap and us hauling booty down there while Ol joe steady as ever held point.

Big, there are some guys who are reporting good things from the black prarie region. In fact, I spoke with one earlier who says they are seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.

As I said before, I can only really afford one dog. And truth be told, after reading more and seeing this thread, an EP might be too much for the cover I am hunting. I mean we are talking some nasty cutover areas. I said earlier 100 yards, really 50 yards would be more realistic. A fellow who was my neighbor before he died owned an English Setter who was named Jack. He was a beautiful dog. Kinda ditzy, but pretty. And man was he birdy. Still is, far as I know. Stanley would run him on wild birds in the Cunningham Bottoms, which is another more open area I am certain I can gain access to hunt. Since Stanley died, that dog would terrorize the songbirds of the neighborhood. I do remember him picking up a lot of burs and stuff. How do these dogs do in warmer weather? Are they stylish on point like say, an EP or GSP is/can be?

kris Schaumburg wrote:all right i responded earlier, but i am back with a more detailed response.

A couple things to consider. I am going to stereotype the breeds a bit here based upon my personal experiences. People tend to be very biased towards their particular breed, so i am prepared to be harassed severely for my comments.

Best bird dog for straight upland work is going to be on of the continentals. Either a GSP or an english pointer. there are very good blood lines for both, and you can somewhat customize your look by choosing between liver or lemons or picking a GSP with a more german look (ie less white). A GSP if a bit more versatile, generally they like the water and retrieving and are more of a personable dog. A pointer is all business. Towards humans they generally are like cats, most of the time they are completely indifferent to people, punctuated by brief bouts where they decide to pay some slight attention to you for no particular reason. Having had a few very good english pointers, i can say they probably make the best field trial dog but the worst pet. Both of these breeds are high energy, its an injustice to have either and not excercise them regularly in a really large space. Also, both hunt way out, so you need some big open spaces to really capitalize on the dog. I personally don't want either, but i do think a dark GSP is about the prettiest dog on the planet.

Biggy, i am just speaking from my experience here and i probably wasn't exposed to great setters. But man, one word dumb. They are however affectionate, some hunt fine. Their long coats really pick up cockleburrs, thorns, beggar's lice, etc.

if you duck hunt as well, and want a dog that will do blood work. Might consider a drathaar. i really like these dogs. Some work water as well as a lab. Some lines can have a mean streak in them, and you will hear of instances of biting, which you would never hear about with a EP. Probably a side effect of their ability to work fur.



If you want a flusher, that opens up a lot of spaniel breeds, but it sounds like you want one that really locks up tight, so there is only one pointing spaniel. A brittany. IMO, for guys in the Eastern US that aren't trialing, a Brittany is the most practical pointing dog. They are nice size, work a medium distance, make great pets, and you don't have to be friends with your neighbors cause they won't range 8 miles as soon as you drop the tail gate. If i lived out west, i woudn't consider a britt because their terrain is different and you need a dog with more range. For here however, you can work small patches and woodcock covers and have a dog that will play with your wife and kids.

kris Schaumburg wrote:

greenheadgrimreaper wrote: it is safe to assume that if you have wild quail then "technically" the wild quai will do 75% of the training for you.

To this i would say no. A good analogy for this would be a lab. will 99% of labs run after a tennis ball if you throw it, yes. Will 1/10 of 1% act presentable and actually know what is going on in a duck blind? Proper training, and by that i mean 1/2 way knowing what you are doing, and doing it repeatedly throughout the year for the first 3 years of the dog's life is what makes a bird dog or a retreiver. For pointing dogs, I would say 75% of makes a finished pointing dog is whoa broken and steady to wing and shot. Neither of those will be instinctive nor self taught.

Kris, doesn’t a Brittany have a long coat similar to an English setter? I am not looking for a flushing dog, to answer you question.
I realize that the bird and the bird alone will not train the dog all he needs to know. But from my meager attempt at learning about training a pointing breed, it seems that the desire to point is usually there. I know that the whoa command is the equivalent to the stay and marking commands for a retriever- I think. Like I have said, I am learning and you all know more than I do about training them. With that being said, I thought I remember reading that pointers can actually be taught by the birds to remain steady. Because if they move an inch the bird will escape, which is what a trainer tries to imitate with bird releases and planted tamies and pigeons, with the obvious help in the beginning from a check rope.

After reading a couple of books, I really like Maurice Lindley’s philosophy of training bird dogs. Although I am not sure how practical it is for the beginner. He doesn’t teach the whoa command. He believes in letting the birds teach the dog with remote launchers and check ropes. It is slower but supposedly the less intense program gives a dog more style. I don’t ever plan on buying a horse and hitting the field trial circuit with dogs that range out a mile. I want a dog that is stylish, knows through training to work close to the gun, and has a disdain for birds like my lab does (good disdain). I guess my main issue is that from the start of the thread I have been feeding my ideas off of the Maurice Lindley method and that is where my comments about letting the birds teach the dog come from. I guess I also have that mentality of wanting the best looking car in the neighborhood. I know that is wrong in many ways and it is all relative to one’s view on beauty, but the English pointers, german shorthairs and English setters seem to be the prettiest of the bunch. I am just not crazy about the look of brittanys. Like I said, doesn’t mean it is right, just my opinion. How do the brittany’s hold up to stuff getting in their coats?

bigwater wrote:I tell you another good thing about setters. Yes they pick up cockleburs and lots of stuff like that. But when the birds get busted up and retreat into the thick nasty stuff.. That Ol setter can get in that thick stuff and get to those birds. The briars and such are just too much for shorthaired dogs..

One of my main concerns. I know Stanley’s ES’s coat was always in shambles after Stanley died, but it seemed to be a pretty good barrier to the elements he ran through chasing robins. I have read that the EP’s and GS’s can get their hide pummeled in the briars. And one thing is for sure, the places I’ll be hunting will be loaded with briars. I do have a soft spot for ES’s because I have seen ole Jack run around for years pointing rabbits and such since Stanley died. I am going to take a hard look at them.

Who knows? I may not even get one this year. I will have one sooner than later though. I am not going to make any hasty decisions, but I do know I want some quail meat this winter. My situation will mostly be close quarters combat, briars, bad thick, want a "stylish" breed while on point and one that has good stamina and can tolerate our warmer weather.

greenheadgrimreaper wrote:Kris, doesn’t a Brittany have a long coat similar to an English setter? I am not looking for a flushing dog, to answer you question.

For what it's worth, I have hunted perdiz over some awesome pointing Brittanies in Argentina and Uruguay. I can't say how North American bloodlines would do on bobwhites, but the Brits I hunted behind were simply superb.

a brit will pick up some junk, i would say they have a med length coat similar to my dog. they are smaller which allows them to get under a lot of obstacles but does limit their speed and range. In my experience (probably limited compared to others on this board), a dog is really only going to pick up damage on its nose/lips/tip of tail and its chest/belly and the leading side of its front elbows. You can alleviate the chest/belly wear with a vest when its cold. Regardless of coat the rest of the areas take damage if the dog has any drive at all. its just a fact of the sport. You see the same with beagles and hounds. i'll agree on brits not being the prettiest (perhaps a better way to put it is not having the classical astechically pleasing characteristics of a pointer, not long and lean or overly muscular). I'd wager to say that most of the EP or GSP guys that have trained brits themselves probably have a huge soft sport for them. I'm biased, but their is just something special about spaniels and the way they act. What about DD's or pudlepointers do you like their looks?

if you are seriously considering a Vizsla, there is a woman out of Lafayette that does versatile dog tests like crazy. she is insane. I ran into her in a dairy queen in Montana last year, where she was running all her dogs on wild birds for most of the month of october. She had driven up their alone in her sportsmobile 4x4 van towing a custom bird dog trailer. Before you ask, yes she's married. paying for the proper lineage up front will pay dividends for multiple years and should be thought of as an investment amortized over the life of a great dog. Small price to pay IMO>

kris Schaumburg wrote:a brit will pick up some junk, i would say they have a med length coat similar to my dog. they are smaller which allows them to get under a lot of obstacles but does limit their speed and range. In my experience (probably limited compared to others on this board), a dog is really only going to pick up damage on its nose/lips/tip of tail and its chest/belly and the leading side of its front elbows. You can alleviate the chest/belly wear with a vest when its cold. Regardless of coat the rest of the areas take damage if the dog has any drive at all. its just a fact of the sport. You see the same with beagles and hounds. i'll agree on brits not being the prettiest (perhaps a better way to put it is not having the classical astechically pleasing characteristics of a pointer, not long and lean or overly muscular). I'd wager to say that most of the EP or GSP guys that have trained brits themselves probably have a huge soft sport for them. I'm biased, but their is just something special about spaniels and the way they act. What about DD's or pudlepointers do you like their looks?

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question wasn't directed at me, but i'll chime in anyway
here is a pic of mine; she has a medium-long lenth hair. especially in the pits and off the back of the legs. she will pick up cuckleburrs and around her ears, neck, and leg/pit areas; i would expect this for any dog with a medium to long hair type. not so much on her belly though; briars and thick brush tops and fence rows, she'll be running through them in an heartbeat. oh forgot to mention more energy than any dog i've ever been around and will swim laps around the pond just becuase she loves the water.

kris Schaumburg wrote:a brit will pick up some junk, i would say they have a med length coat similar to my dog. they are smaller which allows them to get under a lot of obstacles but does limit their speed and range. In my experience (probably limited compared to others on this board), a dog is really only going to pick up damage on its nose/lips/tip of tail and its chest/belly and the leading side of its front elbows. You can alleviate the chest/belly wear with a vest when its cold. Regardless of coat the rest of the areas take damage if the dog has any drive at all. its just a fact of the sport. You see the same with beagles and hounds. i'll agree on brits not being the prettiest (perhaps a better way to put it is not having the classical astechically pleasing characteristics of a pointer, not long and lean or overly muscular). I'd wager to say that most of the EP or GSP guys that have trained brits themselves probably have a huge soft sport for them. I'm biased, but their is just something special about spaniels and the way they act. What about DD's or pudlepointers do you like their looks?

That's what I meant, it's not that they aren't good looking dogs- they are. Case in point ScottyLee's dog is beautiful.

I can't say that I have seen pudlepointers. The problem with dogs that are more rare breeds is that they are more expensive. The same can and does go for certain types/colorations within a breed. For example a white lab will on average cost much more than a black lab with similiar breeding backgrounds. It's not that I have don't ever want to spend the money on a high pedigree dog. I do, I will- maybe. But not right now. There are plenty of "middle of the pack" bred dogs with bloodlines that will work fine for hunting. My lab is a testament to that. Even high dollar dogs wash out. I firmly believe that other than the occasional lemon- who a lot of times has only developed a problem because of its "trainer"- that a dog with a respectable hunting stock can be trained into a fine hunting partner. I could go buy a finished EP with field trial wins today, probably two of them, with cash money. But if I always went about things in that manner I'd also be working till I am 75 and broke. The money is just not there to spend thousands of dollars on a pup.

I refuse to copy that long post

but I had 7 pups back in april and sold them below what is commonly seen on the web. They went from the Gulf Coast to Wisconsin(2 actually going to wisconsin). The biggest problem I have found with a vizsla is they are so smart if you don't give them a "job" they will get mischievous on you. Mine has never been bad to chew or dig or anything like that, just clever, they will get out or climb out and go visit people b/c they are so social and be waiting on you at the front door when your get home from work. I have friends that use them for tracking b/c they have similar shaped heads and noses to a blood hound but listen so much better and don't have that addiction to howling at night when the neighbors are asleep.

I wished you had posted this just a couple weeks earlier b/c I had one pup that I kept a while and had started working with. He would have been a good one to have.

wingman21 wrote:I refuse to copy that long post

but I had 7 pups back in april and sold them below what is commonly seen on the web. They went from the Gulf Coast to Wisconsin(2 actually going to wisconsin). The biggest problem I have found with a vizsla is they are so smart if you don't give them a "job" they will get mischievous on you. Mine has never been bad to chew or dig or anything like that, just clever, they will get out or climb out and go visit people b/c they are so social and be waiting on you at the front door when your get home from work. I have friends that use them for tracking b/c they have similar shaped heads and noses to a blood hound but listen so much better and don't have that addiction to howling at night when the neighbors are asleep.

I wished you had posted this just a couple weeks earlier b/c I had one pup that I kept a while and had started working with. He would have been a good one to have.

I tried to respond individually to each post. Hell if you've read the thread then you've read 95% of it.

You having anymore anytime soon?

Something to consider... the cheapest part of owning a dog is actually buying it.

How much exercise are we talking about? ... Taking them out for a walk won’t be a problem as I go out at least a few days a week

I read this to my GSP -- he chuckled.

stang67 wrote:

How much exercise are we talking about? ... Taking them out for a walk won’t be a problem as I go out at least a few days a week

I read this to my GSP -- he chuckled.

Point taken! When I say walk he can run, preferably to birds.

This is what you consider when buying a hunting/trial dog, regardless of breed. Pedigree and health clearances--a $300 puppy won't come with much of either. Spend the money up front and get the best dog you can afford. JMO